Bible Passages Show Works Required for Salvation

[sculleywr]

I’ve argued from Scripture in saying we’re justified through faith alone. I’m not basing my arguments on what Luther taught. I’ve only quoted and referred to him because he had a far greater capacity than I have to articulate the teaching of Scripture. Also I don’t see anything in those quotes from Clement you gave which contradict justification through faith alone.

Your argument that since faith without works is dead therefore works are necessary for salvation is false. That isn't the teaching of Scripture. The teaching of Scripture is that faith alone saves, and faith produces good works but that they don't contribute to one's salvation.

Since Christ atoned for our sins on the cross the only way we can be in receipt of this forgiveness is through accepting it in faith, which then leads a person to do good works out of gratitude for having been saved through Christ.

Mixing works with faith results in having a selfish motive for doing good works. Instead of freely helping others from altruism, a person who believes in the necessity of doing good works to earn forgiveness will be doing good works from a mercenary motive of personal advantage. That isn't Christian to help others on the basis of personal advantage. A Christian does good to others with no thought of being able to benefit from it himself personally.

If salvation were ONLY being released from the eternal consequences of sin, then works would be selfish. Salvation is much more. In John 17, Christ identifies what eternal life is "To know God, and to know His Son". We do not have perfect knowledge of God or His Son. Therefore we have not yet seen eternal life.

Salvation is Not just being released from sin, but being joined, perfectly, to Christ.

You do not get that from a simple conversion. It is this which Paul says "I do not count myself to have accomplished" about. Even Paul was not finished in his salvation in the writing of Scripture.

Salvation is not a Wonka Ticket. It's perfect Theosis (roughly translates to sanctification with a touch of glorification, in Protestant language) that is our salvation. We join in the dance of the Trinity because we have been perfected and have the life of Christ controlling us. Until every action we do, every thought we have, and every breath we take is driven by Christ, and it is not us, but Christ in us; we are not yet finished with being saved.

In that, works justify, because walking in Christ is the only path to knowing Christ. Conversion got you into God's chocolate factory. Salvation is inheriting the Chocolate Factory.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Then faith is alive without works until we come to the time to work?

Without faith we are dead in our sins. When we have faith, we are alive and justified in the eyes of God. Acts of love and compassion are evidence of our being alive and justified.

Umm. He said you do well after saying "you believe God is one", then said, "the demons do too."

He said it both places. The immediate context of the one you cite here clearly demonstrates the sense of the whole passage. "Works" are how one SHOWS whether one has the faith one professes. If one SAYS one has faith, such as professing the shema, but shows no lover or compassion, it is not a faith that brings life. It is like the faith that demons have. They "believe" in God, but not in a covenant-relationship way.

Believing the truth about God is a lot different than faith in God. Faith without works is just belief, and belief, alone, is what the demons have. We need much more than just belief

Sure. But the works are not added to the faith. They are evidence OF the faith. If we constantly strive to do "enough" works, it is a sign we do not *really* have faith, nor genuine love.

 

[sculleywr]

Without faith we are dead in our sins. When we have faith, we are alive and justified in the eyes of God. Acts of love and compassion are evidence of our being alive and justified.




He said it both places. The immediate context of the one you cite here clearly demonstrates the sense of the whole passage. "Works" are how one SHOWS whether one has the faith one professes. If one SAYS one has faith, such as professing the shema, but shows no lover or compassion, it is not a faith that brings life. It is like the faith that demons have. They "believe" in God, but not in a covenant-relationship way.




Sure. But the works are not added to the faith. They are evidence OF the faith. If we constantly strive to do "enough" works, it is a sign we do not *really* have faith, nor genuine love.

puta pin in that, cause I'm exhausted. I've had a 7 hour work day after an 8 hour school day, followed by a 3 hour homweork time. I'm going to bed, before the English language is murdered by my typos.

 

[Edward65]

If salvation were ONLY being released from the eternal consequences of sin, then works would be selfish. Salvation is much more. In John 17, Christ identifies what eternal life is "To know God, and to know His Son". We do not have perfect knowledge of God or His Son. Therefore we have not yet seen eternal life.

Salvation is Not just being released from sin, but being joined, perfectly, to Christ.

You do not get that from a simple conversion. It is this which Paul says "I do not count myself to have accomplished" about. Even Paul was not finished in his salvation in the writing of Scripture.

Salvation is not a Wonka Ticket. It's perfect Theosis (roughly translates to sanctification with a touch of glorification, in Protestant language) that is our salvation. We join in the dance of the Trinity because we have been perfected and have the life of Christ controlling us. Until every action we do, every thought we have, and every breath we take is driven by Christ, and it is not us, but Christ in us; we are not yet finished with being saved.

In that, works justify, because walking in Christ is the only path to knowing Christ. Conversion got you into God's chocolate factory. Salvation is inheriting the Chocolate Factory.

I gather from your comments that you believe salvation is simply a process which doesn't begin from a definite position of having acquired salvation (which it's one's endeavour not to lose), but rather that a person can never be sure he has actually acquired salvation because doing good works is part of the way that he comes into relationship with God.

If your position was correct then it wouldn't be possible to say that one was in a position of having already obtained salvation and yet the Scriptures actually do say this e.g.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

This passage disproves your position because it says Christians are already in receipt of salvation and that salvation is a gift. Does a person obtain a gift by working for it? No he doesn't. If something is a gift it can only be accepted by a person, and the way a person accepts the gift of salvation is through simply having faith in Christ as his Saviour. Therefore just as God provides salvation for us gratuitously without us meriting it through good works, so we can only receive it through faith alone without also trying to earn it by works. If a person believes in Christ he is saved and has eternal life:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16 ESV)

Good works of course play a role in sanctification and in a Christian's walk with God, but this is always from the basis that he's already saved and he's simply working out his salvation in co-operation with God and endeavouring not to lose what he already possesses.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I gather from your comments that you believe salvation is simply a process which doesn't begin from a definite position of having acquired salvation (which it's one's endeavour not to lose), ...

Good works of course play a role in sanctification and in a Christian's walk with God, but this is always from the basis that he's already saved and he's simply working out his salvation in co-operation with God and endeavouring not to lose what he already possesses.

I'm also going to have to take issue with this, since Gal. 3 is clear in showing that we "stay saved" the same way we "get saved" -- by believing what we heard.

 

[Edward65]

I'm also going to have to take issue with this, since Gal. 3 is clear in showing that we "stay saved" the same way we "get saved" -- by believing what we heard.

What you say is true. We do stay saved the same way we get saved by believing the Gospel and remaining in faith, but my point is that it’s possible, if God allows it, to fall from faith and justification and indulge in unrepentant sinful behaviour as happened for instance to David who committed adultery and murder. Whilst he was in this unrepentant sinful state he was no longer justified through faith, because having true faith is incompatible with living in unrepentant sin. It wasn’t until God sent Nathan to him that the realisation dawned on David that he’d sinned and needed to repent. This can happen to a Christian who becomes negligent and lazy in his walk with God. He can find if he’s not careful that he becomes once again entangled in sinful behaviour which takes hold and drags him down until he is living like he was before he became a Christian. If a person follows the flesh rather than the spirit then he’s no longer living in faith and is therefore in an unsaved state.

It’s true that none of the elect will be permanently severed from faith and lose their justification as all Christ’s sheep will be saved, but one can only be sure of one’s salvation whilst one remains in relationship with God, as outside of this relationship one has no knowledge of whether one will be saved or not. Also as it isn’t possible to have knowledge of God’s hidden will and who He has elected to be saved, the possibility exists that one could fall permanently from faith as happened to King Saul who at one time had the Holy Spirit only to permanently lose Him.

 

[sculleywr]

I gather from your comments that you believe salvation is simply a process which doesn't begin from a definite position of having acquired salvation (which it's one's endeavour not to lose), but rather that a person can never be sure he has actually acquired salvation because doing good works is part of the way that he comes into relationship with God.

If your position was correct then it wouldn't be possible to say that one was in a position of having already obtained salvation and yet the Scriptures actually do say this e.g.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

This passage disproves your position because it says Christians are already in receipt of salvation and that salvation is a gift. Does a person obtain a gift by working for it? No he doesn't. If something is a gift it can only be accepted by a person, and the way a person accepts the gift of salvation is through simply having faith in Christ as his Saviour. Therefore just as God provides salvation for us gratuitously without us meriting it through good works, so we can only receive it through faith alone without also trying to earn it by works. If a person believes in Christ he is saved and has eternal life:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16 ESV)

Good works of course play a role in sanctification and in a Christian's walk with God, but this is always from the basis that he's already saved and he's simply working out his salvation in co-operation with God and endeavouring not to lose what he already possesses.

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
​

He said himself that he had not attained the resurrection from the dead.

Like I said earlier. Conversion is like a Wonka Ticket. It gets you into the factory. But we don't inherit the chocolate factory just because we come inside. We inherit after we have finished the tour and shown our true repentance. Then, God, in His full mercy, and in His Own power, gives salvation's completion to us.

 

[Edward65]

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
​

He said himself that he had not attained the resurrection from the dead.

Like I said earlier. Conversion is like a Wonka Ticket. It gets you into the factory. But we don't inherit the chocolate factory just because we come inside. We inherit after we have finished the tour and shown our true repentance. Then, God, in His full mercy, and in His Own power, gives salvation's completion to us.

There's no disagreement between us on the fact that Christians are not yet in full possession of eternal life because the resurrection from the dead and the end of the world has not yet occurred. However the subject of the thread was the proposition that salvation and therefore justification was not just dependent on faith but was also dependent on works. However if this was actually the case it would mean that salvation wasn't simply a gift, but that it was also the result of human effort, and that works earn merit and favour with God.

St Paul in the passage above is pressing forward to obtain the prize but this wasn't in his eyes earning him salvation, but rather he was trying not to lose what he already had through faith alone, and was through the strength that the Holy Spirit supplied trying to become more and more Christ-like. We can never just remain static in our faith. We need to increase in holiness and in our knowledge of God otherwise we will lose what we already have through faith alone which is eternal life.

And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Colossians 1:9-14 ESV)

 

[Tangible]

"Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.”
~The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Haven't the Lutherans come around to agree with the Catholic Church about faith and works?

The JDDJ was an agreement between liberal Lutherans who no longer fully believe what Lutherans have consistently believed, taught and confessed since the beginning of the Reformation, and who are in full communion with Reformed and other protestant bodies teaching doctrines in direct opposition to Lutheran doctrines.

The purpose of the JDDJ was to attempt to show that there are no real or substantial differences in what all churches believe, teach and confess. The RCC was a willing participant in this charade, yet afterward published its own document stating that none of its positions had changed and no compromises had been made on their part.

The JDDJ is a vacuous statement, devoid of significance, with ill-defined terms used sloppily in an attempt to demonstrate unity where none exists.

 

[Scipio]

Help me out here.

Protestants claim that faith comes first but good works necessarily follow. I.e. you can't truly accept Jesus without subsequently performing good works.

Or is it the case that a person can have faith and still live an immoral, wretched life and end up in heaven without repenting for those sins? (Repentance and the resolution to stop sinning counts, I trust, as doing good works)

If the first is true then I accept the protestant view on justification as well.

If the second is true then I don't.

EDIT: Nvm, I found the answer in a different thread.

 

[St_Worm2]

Help me out here.

Protestants claim that faith comes first but good works necessarily follow. I.e. you can't truly accept Jesus without subsequently performing good works.

Or is it the case that a person can have faith and still live an immoral, wretched life and end up in heaven without repenting for those sins? (Repentance and the resolution to stop sinning counts, I trust, as doing good works)

If the first is true then I accept the protestant view on justification as well.

If the second is true then I don't.

Hi Scipio, we Protestants believe that good works are the result of becoming/being a Christian, however, they cannot contribute in any way to obtaining salvation because "good works", IOW, works that are pleasing to God and according to His will, cannot be performed by non-Christians. Please notice my quote concerning this very thing in my signature line below (by John Calvin*). So yes, if one has come to faith and has truly become a Christian, good works will necessarily follow as a result.

However, if someone "CLAIMS" to have become a Christian, but this person never demonstrates any evidence to justify such a claim (IOW, if they continue to "live an immoral, wretched life" as you put it above), we do not consider their claim to be valid.

We are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ (John 5:24; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), and this involves God making us into "new creatures" (2 Corinthians 5:17). When faith is real and God has caused a real change of heart to occur, works pleasing to Him will result (Ephesians 2:10).

Yours and His,
David

*My signature line disappeared when I made a change to this post, so I'll just paste the quote back in so you can read it.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the
faith that justifies is never alone."
John Calvin​

 

[Scipio]

Hi Scipio, we Protestants believe that good works are the result of becoming/being a Christian, however, they cannot contribute in any way to obtaining salvation because "good works", IOW, works that are pleasing to God and according to His will, cannot be performed by non-Christians. Please notice my quote concerning this very thing in my signature line below (by John Calvin*). So yes, if one has come to faith and has truly become a Christian, good works will necessarily follow as a result.

However, if someone "CLAIMS" to have become a Christian, but this person never demonstrates any evidence to justify such a claim (IOW, if they continue to "live an immoral, wretched life" as you put it above), we do not consider their claim to be valid.

We are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ (John 5:24; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), and this involves God making us into "new creatures" (2 Corinthians 5:17). When faith is real and God has caused a real change of heart to occur, works pleasing to Him will result (Ephesians 2:10).

Yours and His,
David

*My signature line disappeared when I made a change to this post, so I'll just paste the quote back in so you can read it.

"We are justified by faith alone, but the
faith that justifies is never alone."
John Calvin​

Thank you for taking the time to respond sir.

Clearly, I need to read more on justification.

 

[Albion]

Help me out here.

Protestants claim that faith comes first but good works necessarily follow. I.e. you can't truly accept Jesus without subsequently performing good works.

There are Protestants on both sides of this issue since, after all, there are many and unrelated Protestant churches. However, most do believe as you've described here.

Or is it the case that a person can have faith and still live an immoral, wretched life and end up in heaven without repenting for those sins? (Repentance and the resolution to stop sinning counts, I trust, as doing good works)

I don't know any Protestants who believe THAT, however.

 

[Light of the East]

Okay. So which is it? Are we justified by the keeping of the law or by faith alone?

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

OR

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I will warn you right now....this is a trap and a trick question. Answer at your own risk.

 

[arabianhorselover]

Haven't the Lutherans come around to agree with the Catholic Church about faith and works?

What are you talking about? I'm Lutheran, and we believe in faith alone.

 

[Light of the East]

What are you talking about? I'm Lutheran, and we believe in faith alone.

Why? Why do you believe in something that is not only not in the Bible, but is against the principles of covenant?

 

[faroukfarouk]

'Not of works' (Ephesians 2.9).

 

[arabianhorselover]

Actually, this entire discussion is rather silly. Jesus himself said "He Who Believes And Is Baptized Shall Be Saved". Nothing in there about works.

 

[Light of the East]

Actually, this entire discussion is rather silly. Jesus himself said "He Who Believes And Is Baptized Shall Be Saved". Nothing in there about works.

If that is true, then how come in Romans 2: 5-10, John 5: 28-29, Matthew 25: 31-43, and Rev. 20: 12-13, at the Last Judgment, eternal life is given to those who have done good works and no mention at all is made of "faith alone" as a criteria for receiving eternal life?

Answer, please.

 

[arabianhorselover]

I have to leave for now.