Bible Methodist Churches

[crixus]

While travelling across country I visited one of these churches in Oklahoma City.
The Bible Methodist Connection of Churches

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Interesting. I don't really see a clear difference between them and the Southern Baptist Church. Definitely nowhere near compatible with the UMC. But fascinating, nonetheless, and not something I had heard of. The only exception I see is that they call Sacraments "Sacraments", instead of Ordinances or Symbols like most SBC'ers.

Their constitution even forbids gold, costly apparel and rings. Definitely a very literalist-inerrantist group.

They also ban (per their constitution) the "singing of songs or reading of books" that don't glorify God. i.e., nothing secular. Gee, the more I read into this constitution, the more I struggle to find anything "Methodist" about them. Seeking knowledge, even outside knowledge, is the crux of Methodism.

Someone is probably going to read this thread who might find it interesting that they also won't allow you to be a member if you belong to a "secret society", which I take includes freemasons

Congregationalist with denomination-level Ordination once sent from the local church (Sounds like how I understand it works in the ABC); and they don't ordain women. The churches are supposed to 'call their own Pastor' which is then confirmed by the Annual Conference.

EDIT: Okay I kept reading. Wow... some of the things that are 'forbidden' in their constitution:

Swimming
Professional Sports
Singing or Playing Instruments outside of worship
Being inclusive of 'Worldly Attractions' (whatever that means?)

A short, frankly weird, list of verboten things in their constitution.

If someone commits adultery, they automatically forfeit their membership for being 'evil'. Gee, just like Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, right?

I don't mean to hijack or berate your thread. It's just, as a Methodist, I have an understanding of what "Methodist" means. This group seems like a group of hyper-conservative congregationalist puritans who maybe originally grew up Methodist and wanted to keep their namesake. I can't find ANYTHING "Methodist" about it. They are Sola Scriptura, no quadrilateral understanding, not one mention of Wesley, etc.

I have met folks who are members of the UMC whose personal theology and ideology is not at all Methodist. But they grew up Methodist and they regard ones denominational affiliation like ones race; you were born with it and can't change it. So they continue. Sometimes quietly, sometimes with more abrasion wanting the denomination to reflect their values instead of the other way around. It seems they'd be right at home here, since the sign still says 'Methodist', but the theology says "17th century Puritan with a 21st century Bapto-Literalist flair"

 

[circuitrider]

In reading a little history on wikipedia it appears this is a group that thought the Nazarenes and the Wesleyan Churches were too "worldly" or "liberal" and so split with them.

Notice their articles of religion are taken from Wesley but are modified for their doctrine.

 

[circuitrider]

By the way, this group is far more conservative than the SBC. I seldom get to say that about anyone.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

By the way, this group is far more conservative than the SBC. I seldom get to say that about anyone.

Yeah. It's a progression, too, if you read.

I started out reading it and saying "Okay, another conservative spin-off; sort of a Wesleyan/Nazarene church" then kept reading and thought "Why aren't they just SBC'ers?" and then ended up with "Wow, because the SBC is too liberal for them!"

I've said before; that the beauty of the UMC IS our existence on two spectrums. Who pull at each other and challenge each other and come up with a doctrine and theology that is our best work together. When one group leaves the other, they are no longer holding each other up; and instead have fallen all the way down; whichever way they lean.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I don't think that either John or Charles Wesley would be allowed to join this group.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I don't think that either John or Charles Wesley would be allowed to join this group.

I don't think they'd want to!

 

[GraceSeeker]

I don't think they'd want to!

Not being any more familiar with the group than the link, I can't say. I don't think that not joining the group would keep John from worshipping with them. His view of the unity of the body seems to be pretty inclusive (with the exception of some anti-Catholic rhetoric copied from the Church of England's Articles of Religion).

 

[crixus]

I wanted some input, and got it. Thank you.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I wanted some input, and got it. Thank you.

I hope we weren't discouraging. I think the group just surprised us. If that was a fundie non-denom or an Assemblies of God or Southern Baptist church or something like that; I don't think we'd be as surprised. Or perhaps even a Mennonite group. But the word 'Methodist' means something and I'm not sure this group knows what that is. I strongly suspect they are 'Methodist' not because of a connection to the quadrilateral, or really even the holiness movement; but probably just an arbitrary historic connection. Likely a group that split off of another group that was Methodist; and felt they ought to keep the name.

Nothing wrong, per se. Though their theology, as you might've guessed, is very different than the theology of most of us here at WP. It's just not very 'Methodist' in most ways that word is defined.

Sort of like the non-Roman Catholic groups, to a Roman Catholic. Talk to most devout Catholics about groups like the "German Catholic Church" and they'll adamantly tell you they aren't Catholic; even though they espouse to be. Those groups are non-Protestant split-off's; in other words, they have no qualms about RCC theology. Their theology, for the most part (it has evolved over time, some ordain women, etc.) is still Catholic. But they reject the authority of the Vatican over the church. There are even congregationalist Catholic churches that ordain their own priests, and call their own Pastors (i.e., they aren't appointed to the churches as in the RCC) but maintain almost identical theology and practice to the Roman Catholic Church. BUT; to a devout Catholic, that's exactly what MAKES a Catholic. The "church" is what adheres to the authority of Rome, anything else, isn't Catholic. Even though those spinoff groups certainly feel they are Catholic!

 

[Dave-W]

Interesting. My sister lives in the OK City area and may have her check these guys out. They do seem to have some holiness roots and talk about Wesley's second act of grace for sanctification. From the Mission Statement:

5. Scriptural Holiness: We believe that God calls every believer to holiness that rises out of His character. We understand it to begin in the new birth, include a second work of gracethat empowers, purifies and fills each person with the Holy Spirit, and continue in a lifelong pursuit.

And in the constitution:

17. Entire Sanctification is that work of the Holy Spirit by which the child of God is cleansed from all inbred sin through faith in Jesus Christ. It is subsequent to regeneration, and is wrought when the believer presents himself a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, and is thus enabled through grace to love God with all the heart and to walk in His holy commandments blameless.

That sounds rather Wesleyan to me.

 

[Dave-W]

By the way, this group is far more conservative than the SBC. I seldom get to say that about anyone.

I hear you. But you should look up and check the doctrinal statements from the Fundamentalist Baptists and/or the Illinois Synod Lutherans. The Fundamentalist Baptists actually call the SBC "Bapti-Catholics."

 

[circuitrider]

I hear you. But you should look up and check the doctrinal statements from the Fundamentalist Baptists and/or the Illinois Synod Lutherans. The Fundamentalist Baptists actually call the SBC "Bapti-Catholics."

I know I probably sounded critical to the original poster. But what was a big surprise about the denomination is that they have Methodist in their title but have little or no relationship to what I think of as Methodism.

It isn't just that they are conservative. There are a lot of conservative Methodists. But many of the restrictions seem not to fit Wesleyan thinking and the doctrinal statements seem far from Wesleyan.

If they'd said they were conservative Baptists I'd not have been at all surprised.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Distinctive Wesleyan Emphases - The United Methodist Church


Our Wesleyan Heritage - The United Methodist Church

 

[crixus]

I hope we weren't discouraging. I think the group just surprised us. If that was a fundie non-denom or an Assemblies of God or Southern Baptist church or something like that; I don't think we'd be as surprised. Or perhaps even a Mennonite group. But the word 'Methodist' means something and I'm not sure this group knows what that is. I strongly suspect they are 'Methodist' not because of a connection to the quadrilateral, or really even the holiness movement; but probably just an arbitrary historic connection. Likely a group that split off of another group that was Methodist; and felt they ought to keep the name.

Nothing wrong, per se. Though their theology, as you might've guessed, is very different than the theology of most of us here at WP. It's just not very 'Methodist' in most ways that word is defined.

Sort of like the non-Roman Catholic groups, to a Roman Catholic. Talk to most devout Catholics about groups like the "German Catholic Church" and they'll adamantly tell you they aren't Catholic; even though they espouse to be. Those groups are non-Protestant split-off's; in other words, they have no qualms about RCC theology. Their theology, for the most part (it has evolved over time, some ordain women, etc.) is still Catholic. But they reject the authority of the Vatican over the church. There are even congregationalist Catholic churches that ordain their own priests, and call their own Pastors (i.e., they aren't appointed to the churches as in the RCC) but maintain almost identical theology and practice to the Roman Catholic Church. BUT; to a devout Catholic, that's exactly what MAKES a Catholic. The "church" is what adheres to the authority of Rome, anything else, isn't Catholic. Even though those spinoff groups certainly feel they are Catholic!

No, you didn't put the kibosh on it for me. As I stated, I was just traveling across country. That was the closest church to my hotel, so I thought I'd check it out. They were very nice, which hasn't always happened while visiting churches when I travel. I'm not a member of that denomination and had never heard of them before stopping in OKC. And I'm not UMC either. I attend the Protestant Chapel on a military base in California. The Chaplain/Pastor for the service I attend is a Free Methodist. But I don't claim any denomination. There's so many due to all the infighting...that never ends. So I'm an old fashioned free will Bible believing Christian who trusts in the Lord.

 

[FergusonTO35]

These folks remind me alot of the Particular or Hard-Shell/Primitive Baptists of my state.

 

[raschau]

But what was a big surprise about the denomination is that they have Methodist in their title but have little or no relationship to what I think of as Methodism.

Total depravity, conditional (or corporate) election, general atonement, resistable grace, restoration of apostates, and entire sanctification. These are the Methodist theological distinctives. When is a Methodist church not a Methodist church?