Bible-Creation-Evolution (2)

[Belk]

The point dad is making is that no one ever died knowing that what they died for was a lie.

The Heaven's Gate Cult thought they were right, Islams think they are right, but one doesn't become a martyr for something he knows to be a lie.

Really? So no soldier ever died for a cause they did not believe in?

 

[sandwiches]

Really? So no soldier ever died for a cause they did not believe in?

I think AV is speaking specifically of martyrs. Now, I think more to the point that dad was making is that just because someone died as a martyr for something they thought was true, doesn't make their belief correct, like dad implies. After all, I'm sure AV would agree with me that Muslims dying for Allah aren't dying for the 'true god' despite what they might believe. So, if there are martyrs that die for incorrect beliefs, millions of Christians dying for their belief doesn't prove their beliefs correct.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Well remember, He also walked on water, healed the sick and raised the dead.

That certainly set Him apart from any false messiahs.

Not really -- most of Jesus' miracles were imitated before and after he was around.

Apparently he did -- but the point is, he would not have done that, knowing he wasn't.

Even you might do that, if you thought you were the Messiah; but you certainly wouldn't, knowing you're not the Messiah.

So, he thought he was the Messiah -- or at least, that's what the Gospel writers wanted us to believe.

 

[Tiberius]

The point dad is making is that no one ever died knowing that what they died for was a lie.

The Heaven's Gate Cult thought they were right, Islams think they are right, but one doesn't become a martyr for something he knows to be a lie.

So, A Muslim may think he is right...

No, wait...

A Muslim can KNOW he is right, but he can in reality be mistaken. A Hindu can KNOW he is right, but he can also be mistaken. What about Christians, AV?

 

[dad]

I see. So all the sects that splintered off from the church over the years and where persecuted are correct? As apparently are the Heavens Gate folks.

Did they witness Christ? Peter did. John did. etc

 

[dad]

The "same past state" idea has EVIDENCE, which is something you';ve never been able to provide. Why don't you provide some specific evidence now?

OK. The word of God.

Oh, and people die for mistaken beliefs all the time. When a Muslim suicide bomber kills himself, he's dying for what you consider a mistaken belief.

He did not kill kids and women because he or she wanted to confirm Mohammad existed. We already know that.

Ah, but are ghosts doomed to play out what they did during life?

No

Or are they still able to make independant decisions?

I never met one, you ask for me.

And are only people ghosts? Or can animals become ghosts too? And what about objects? There are many reports of ghostly apparitions of ships.

I take it you perceive ghosts are spirits? If so, then that means they are alive...in another form. That would mean that there is more than science knows.

And why do they stay on earth? Are they unable to let go of life? Are they simply echoes of life? Or are they remaining behind to watch over those who are still alive?

Depends on which movie we watch I guess.

There are many different interpretations of spiritual activity, Dad. it's not black and white.

Good and bad spirits. Yes.

Be concerned.

I have something much more powerful than you'll ever have. I have evidence from reality.

Excellent. Show us.

Your position requires you to believe things with no evidence at all, and it also requires you to dismiss the evidence in reality.

False. I dismiss nothing ever. And nothing is more evidenced than God's word.

The differnece is, I'm saying that there was a set of laws that we KNOW work. You can't even describe how the laws were different.

Insanity. There WAS a set of laws that you know "work"???? You would have to mean "worked"!

But, if you disagree, please tell me how the law of gravity was different back then.

It need not be different. There just needed to be other forces that balance it out.

And how did we find out the things we know today? By studying reality.

Reality of today? Or the future? Or the far past? Learn the difference.

 

[Belk]

Did they witness Christ? Peter did. John did. etc

Is your statement only valid if they did?

 

[Tiberius]

OK. The word of God.

Ahem. I said specific

He did not kill kids and women because he or she wanted to confirm Mohammad existed. We already know that.

When did I say that was the sole reason matyrs kill themselves?

No

You're a ghost expert then?

I never met one, you ask for me.

A ghost expert who has never met a ghost...

I take it you perceive ghosts are spirits? If so, then that means they are alive...in another form. That would mean that there is more than science knows.

I never said anything about my position on ghosts. I find the whole concept to be so ill-defined that a definite conclusion is impossible. Although I lean towards scepticism.

Depends on which movie we watch I guess.

So now ghosts are only in the movies.

Good and bad spirits. Yes.

That's not what I meant...

Excellent. Show us.

I already have. Or are you forgetting all those times I've mentioned radioactive dating?

False. I dismiss nothing ever. And nothing is more evidenced than God's word.

God's word contradicts reality.

Insanity. There WAS a set of laws that you know "work"???? You would have to mean "worked"!

Ah, so you think the set of laws in the universe right now do not work?

It need not be different. There just needed to be other forces that balance it out.

Please tell us about some of these other forces.

Reality of today? Or the future? Or the far past? Learn the difference.

The reality of today. Which, might I add, displays no evidence that it was ever any different.

 

[Freodin]

The point dad is making is that no one ever died knowing that what they died for was a lie.

The Heaven's Gate Cult thought they were right, Islams think they are right, but one doesn't become a martyr for something he knows to be a lie.

You are ignoring the (very real) possibility that Jesus dying had nothing to do with what he though was true or lie.

 

[mzungu]

They're all connected. Analytical problems for materialists are not problems in general

YouTube - murder by death

 

[Upisoft]

You are ignoring the (very real) possibility that Jesus dying had nothing to do with what he though was true or lie.

In following video the question about dying for a lie is explored very well. In fact they show there are people willing to die even if they know it is for a lie.

Atheist Experience #623: More on Martyrs - The Atheist Experience TV Show - blip.tv

 

[HAPMinistries]

So, like I said, the god axiom was useless in helping us determine anything. Science helped us again.

Wrong.
Gravity existed before science.
Science did not invent gravity.
Just observed it.
Needed God to create it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wrong.
Gravity existed before science.
Science did not invent gravity.
Just observed it.
Needed God to create it.

 

[Freodin]

In following video the question about dying for a lie is explored very well. In fact they show there are people willing to die even if they know it is for a lie.

Atheist Experience #623: More on Martyrs - The Atheist Experience TV Show - blip.tv

That was an interesting show, and a lot of good arguments against that tired old piece of apologetics... but I was aiming at a different point.

All these points - pro and contra "dying willingly for a lie" - only take into account the victim, never the killer. Why do people assume that these were all the nice rational people who would have gone "Oh, so you deny Jesus now. Fine, scuttle off! Sorry to have bothered you!"?

From the Christian side it is understandable: if you believe that martyrs only and exclusively were killed for "preaching the truth", there would be no reason not to let backsliders go off.

But if there were - and there were! - other reasons: political, economical, social - for persecuting groups... it is very likely that just denying your faith would not left you off the hook.

The pious martyr just makes a better story.

 

[rjc34]

Wrong.
Gravity existed before science.
Science did not invent gravity.
Just observed it.
Needed God to create it.

Prove it.

 

[Supreme]

That was an interesting show, and a lot of good arguments against that tired old piece of apologetics... but I was aiming at a different point.

All these points - pro and contra "dying willingly for a lie" - only take into account the victim, never the killer. Why do people assume that these were all the nice rational people who would have gone "Oh, so you deny Jesus now. Fine, scuttle off! Sorry to have bothered you!"?

From the Christian side it is understandable: if you believe that martyrs only and exclusively were killed for "preaching the truth", there would be no reason not to let backsliders go off.

But if there were - and there were! - other reasons: political, economical, social - for persecuting groups... it is very likely that just denying your faith would not left you off the hook.

The pious martyr just makes a better story.

People have been martryed throughout history for numerous different causes, no matter how inane. Just because someone is willing to die for something, it does not mean their cause is any closer to the truth.

 

[dad]

Is your statement only valid if they did?

They did.

 

[dad]

Ahem. I said specific



When did I say that was the sole reason matyrs kill themselves?



You're a ghost expert then?



A ghost expert who has never met a ghost...



I never said anything about my position on ghosts. I find the whole concept to be so ill-defined that a definite conclusion is impossible. Although I lean towards scepticism.



So now ghosts are only in the movies.



That's not what I meant...



I already have. Or are you forgetting all those times I've mentioned radioactive dating?



God's word contradicts reality.



Ah, so you think the set of laws in the universe right now do not work?



Please tell us about some of these other forces.



The reality of today. Which, might I add, displays no evidence that it was ever any different.

No evidence it was the same. It is different being called a martyr for dying in a crib, or a runaway train, or dying to affirm one knew Jesus was real.

As for spirits....one must reckon with them to deal with history.

 

[Tiberius]

Ah, so typical.

I ask you for specific evidence, and you go and hide behind your "No evidence it was the same" rhetoric, despite the fact I have presented evidence to you and you have been unable to show any solid reason to doubt it.

Are we gonna keep running around in this circle Dad? Present SPECIFIC evidence that the past state of the world was different!

 

[TheReasoner]

Ah, so typical.

I ask you for specific evidence, and you go and hide behind your "No evidence it was the same" rhetoric, despite the fact I have presented evidence to you and you have been unable to show any solid reason to doubt it.

Are we gonna keep running around in this circle Dad? Present SPECIFIC evidence that the past state of the world was different!

He cannot. You know so, I know so and I think 'dad' does as well.