Bible contradictions?

[Buy Bologna]

How many men drew the sword for Israel counted by Joab? 2nd Sam. 24:9 says 800,000. or 1st Chron. 21:5 says 1.1 million.



How much did David pay for the threshing floor? Was it 600 shekels? (1 Chron. 21:25) or was it 50 shekels? (2nd Sam.24:24)


How many men did David's Chief of Kings kill in one encounter? 800? (2nd Sam. 23:8) or 300? (1 Chron.11:11).


I'm excited I can start my own thread now.

I've decided to start one that's just been on my mind lately. It's bible contradictions.

Forget the overall themes like 'God is love and yet violence condoned' and/or 'the trinity, god is one or god is all 3' blah blah blah. That just gets pushed off into the gray area.

Let's just start with some basic, flatout contradictions. Black and white, plain and simple. And since (i assume) we all know basic math I'll go with these.

I would really like to hear your thought on these. Anyway, enough rambling,

 

[docpotter]

Do you think these contradictions really matter ?

 

[Buy Bologna]

Do you think these contradictions really matter ?

Don't you?

Are you admitting that the bible contradicts itself?

 

[docpotter]

Don't you?

Are you admitting that the bible contradicts itself?

Well , I think those matters you brought up are sort of trivial. I mean , weather David spent 50 or 800 sheckles of silver doesn't really change the landscape of Christianity.

 

[Resha Caner]

If I give you an answer, are you going to consider it? Accept it? IOW, are you interested in resolving the conflicts or proving them? That's a rhetorical question. I wouldn't expect that you're going to declare some kind of mercenary intention.

The thing is, one can easily do an Internet search on these verses and find the way Christians explain them. So, I assume you've done that, and for some reason you found the explanation unsatisfactory.

Take David and the threshing floor as an example. It is easy to find sites that note the differences between the verses you're quoting. It is quite probable that 2nd Samuel is giving details - specific prices for specific portions, whereas 1st Chronicles is giving a total price.

 

[Buy Bologna]

Well , I think those matters you brought up are sort of trivial. I mean , weather David spent 50 or 800 sheckles of silver doesn't really change the landscape of Christianity.

They are NOT trivial, like I said in the OP. This is black and white.

Therefore it does change the 'landscape' of Christianity doesn't it? What about competence?

Does not the bible say 'ALL scripture is inspired by god. (2 Tim. 3:16).

Do you not think ALL is inspired by god, or only some?

If I said to you that 2 + 2 = 6, and then said "Jesus wants u to repent and be saved."

Would you not say "Waitasec, this is coming from the same guy that said 2+2=6."

 

[BondiHarry]

Lovely, once again a man is intent on correcting God's mistakes. Perhaps if you spent less time trying to find contradictions and more time trying to digest what God is teaching us in the Bible you would find that so much of what men call Biblical contradictions are just said men showing they haven't bothered to read the Bible in context, demand literalism when (horrors) God uses symbolism and haven't figured out that often times when God's word is translated from the original language into say English the nuances of the original words can become blurred. It will be kind of embarassing to stand before Jesus for judgment having denied His wisdom and counsel because YOU thought you had found 'contradictions' in the Bible. As a movie character once mused it will not be an excuse to Jesus that you committed evil because men of power told you to do so (be they Presidents, members of Congress or Supreme Court justices no man is free to call evil good or good evil) or that virtue was not convenient at the time, these will not suffice ... remember that!

 

[Buy Bologna]

If I give you an answer, are you going to consider it? Accept it? IOW, are you interested in resolving the conflicts or proving them

Is is too much to ask for both?

The thing is, one can easily do an Internet search on these verses and find the way Christians explain them. So, I assume you've done that, and for some reason you found the explanation unsatisfactory.

Please don't assume. Should I do an internet search or come here to a decent source?

Take David and the threshing floor as an example. It is easy to find sites that note the differences between the verses you're quoting. It is quite probable that 2nd Samuel is giving details - specific prices for specific portions, whereas 1st Chronicles is giving a total price.

Quite probable? Thanks,this is why i came here. I will consider this in my pondering. And I would like your thoughts on all 3 of the examples I gave i my OP if you would.

 

[Buy Bologna]

Lovely, once again a man is intent on correcting God's mistakes. Perhaps if you spent less time trying to find contradictions and more time trying to digest what God is teaching us in the Bible you would find that so much of what men call Biblical contradictions are just said men showing they haven't bothered to read the Bible in context, demand literalism when (horrors) God uses symbolism and haven't figured out that often times when God's word is translated from the original language into say English the nuances of the original words can become blurred. It will be kind of embarassing to stand before Jesus for judgment having denied His wisdom and counsel because YOU thought you had found 'contradictions' in the Bible. As a movie character once mused it will not be an excuse to Jesus that you committed evil because men of power told you to do so (be they Presidents, members of Congress or Supreme Court justices no man is free to call evil good or good evil) or that virtue was not convenient at the time, these will not suffice ... remember that!

This thread isn't for you.

If you don't have an answer then please avoid this thread.

You are attempting to get this into the gray area.


And if I do have to stand b4 Jesus/Jehovah/Yahweh one day then I'm sure he will understand my reasoning with the brain he gave me.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

The bible was written by man THROUGH God, therefor at least in my opinion the human may have written something wrong sometimes. Or alternativly, it just got translated wrong. I see that happen often. If you look at the diffrence between the KJV and NIV, a change of a few words makes a big diffrence in how you read it!

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I dont really mind conmtradictions here and there. I anm not the greatest "believer" anyway, if that isin fact a virtue. I take the bible as a source of inspiration sometimes, e.g. in the proverbs, but to be honest I hardly ever read even them. I do go to chuurch and pray, but am not particularlty bothered whether it is all self delusion or not, I would probably continue anyway and try my best to blank the idea out.

 

[BondiHarry]

This thread isn't for you.

Why not? After all you've come to a Christian web site so don't be shocked that you get Christ followers giving you Christian answers.

If you don't have an answer then please avoid this thread.

I gave you an answer but one you apparently didn't care for. SO, have you read the 'contradicting' passages correctly in context and understand the nuances (or symbolism) of the words used in the original languages those passages were written in or are you simply doing what many nay-sayers do and find what you think is a contradiction and say "ah hah, I can dismiss the Bible because it has an error in it"?

You are attempting to get this into the gray area.

Truth may be a gray area for men since we are of limited intelligence and often lack the drive to truly seek her but it is hardly a 'gray area' to God.

And if I do have to stand b4 Jesus/Jehovah/Yahweh one day then I'm sure he will understand my reasoning with the brain he gave me.

He will understand your reasoning, however that will be of little consolation to you if you have rejected the Creator and embraced unholiness (yes God gives each of us a brain but He doesn't force us to use it and after having gone to several sites on the internet which purport to show the 'contradictions' in the Bible and seeing example after example of 'contradictions' which are easily shown not to be contradictions but easily refutable examples of the laziness or dishonesty of the person wishing to discredit the Bible and God it is apparent that a lot of folks don't want to use their brains; the idiotic legislation that often comes out of Congress is another example of brains being wasted). Man's ability to deceive himself (be it thinking abortion is not murder or thinking it can't be stealing if I use the coercive power of government to take money from my neighbor to give to myself) is legendary but deep down we all know that God exists and God has given us all a conscience that can help us distinguish between right and wrong if we care to utilize it.

 

[Resha Caner]

Please don't assume.

OK.

Should I do an internet search or come here to a decent source?

(shrug) Both are a mixture of reliability.

I would like your thoughts on all 3 of the examples I gave i my OP if you would.

OK. I don't try to keep a list of every verse that unbelievers question. Doesn't the Bible have something like 30,000+ verses? I just don't have time to justify every verse.

So, I'm not going to go searching amongst Biblical scholars for answers to these particular verses unless there is one that becomes pertinent to our discussion. These are just some unrehearsed thoughts off the top of my head.

You're going to have to explain to me why these particular verses bother you and how you came upon them. IOW, what standard of reliability are you expecting?

How many men drew the sword for Israel counted by Joab? 2nd Sam. 24:9 says 800,000. or 1st Chron. 21:5 says 1.1 million.

I'll take this one as an example. Did the Bible ever state a margin of error on these numbers? If not, how will you ever justify your expectations for a margin of error? Is it fair to apply modern standards for "crowd counting science", or is it a fairer judgement to understand what is trying to be presented here? I believe in Biblical inerrancy, so I'm not trying to brush off apparent contradictions, but we do need to set some reasonable expectations ... and I'll say a bit more about that after I address this specific instance.

What is the expected accuracy of modern crowd counting? Well, at first glance I found 2 references:

The Curious Science of Counting a Crowd - Popular Mechanics

Here they quote 10% as the expected margin.

Million Man March - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here they quote 25% as the expected margin.

(1.1 million - 800,000) / 1.1 million = 27.2% difference. Not too far from what one source said, but what should we expect when we compare ancient crowd estimates with modern science?

Another question: How would you expect Biblical crowd estimates to compare with estimates from other ancient sources? Do you find all ancient sources to be unreliable? If so, does that mean history knows nothing of the past? I have a history degree, and this seems to be a common problem with lay questions about the Bible, i.e. that a very strict standard is demanded that historians don't apply.

But even beyond that, what is going on in the context of these 2 verses? Did you read the story that surrounds them? The census happened because David didn't trust in God. He wanted to be sure his army was strong enough. The man he sent to do the census, Joab, was offended by David's mistrust. Verse 6 makes it clear that Joab withheld information from David about the census. So, we have 2 different texts from 2 different authors. Is it possible one reported the actual count and one reported the count given to David?

- - -

OK. Some more about what we should expect from the Bible. There are several verses that give a relation between circumference and diameter as 3. Some complain that this is an error because that is not the value of pi. All such complaints reveal is a lack of understanding of mathematics. First, the Bible never claims to give the value of pi. Instead, it is giving instructions to workmen of the period for contructing various things - barrels, etc. Given the accuracy of the tools those workmen probably used, 3 is a satisfactory value. Second, had the Bible been using modern mathematical terminology, 3 is an accurate description of pi to 1 significant digit, and so expressing it as 3 is perfectly proper. Pi is a transcendental number. Anyone who understands what that means, realizes it would be impossible to write the "true" value of pi as a numeric representation. So are we going to ask God to write into the Bible things that a human could not possibly comprehend? That seems a very odd standard.

 

[stiggywiggy]

The Bible is a divine revelation, not a textbook. Just as Christ was both man and God, so is the makeup of the Bible both man and Holy Spirit. The substance is divine, the form is human.

Analogically, you are like someone who might have examine the body of Jesus Christ while on earth and declared, "He cannot be God. He is flawed, just like us. He must defecate. He gets hungry. He gets sleepy."

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus of Nazareth (having emptied Himself of His deity) did not know that the earth revolved around the sun (even though He arranged it that way). Would that somehow "contradict" His deity?

 

[Buy Bologna]

Why not? After all you've come to a Christian web site so don't be shocked that you get Christ followers giving you Christian answers.

Becuz it's evasive. I would like to hear your thoughts on these 3 examples in particular.

I gave you an answer but one you apparently didn't care for. SO, have you read the 'contradicting' passages correctly in context and understand the nuances (or symbolism) of the words used in the original languages those passages were written in

Well, actually yes i did and I'm pretty much takn it fairly literally. If there is something symbolic or metaphoric about 50 shekels or 800 men in these instances tho. I would really like your input on this.

or are you simply doing what many nay-sayers do and find what you think is a contradiction and say "ah hah, I can dismiss the Bible because it has an error in it"?

ahem..errors. not error.I just gave you 3 (alleged) errors. And there are plenty more, which i can give later in this thread. But I don't want to open a floodgate so to speak, let's just get by these 3.

[/quote]

Truth may be a gray area for men since we are of limited intelligence and often lack the drive to truly seek her but it is hardly a 'gray area' to God.

And it's gray to me. Now is the bible wrote for me or is it wrote for god?

He will understand your reasoning, however that will be of little consolation to you if you have rejected the Creator and embraced unholiness (yes God gives each of us a brain but He doesn't force us to use it and after having gone to several sites on the internet which purport to show the 'contradictions' in the Bible and seeing example after example of 'contradictions' which are easily shown not to be contradictions but easily refutable examples of the laziness or dishonesty of the person wishing to discredit the Bible and God it is apparent that a lot of folks don't want to use their brains; the idiotic legislation that often comes out of Congress is another example of brains being wasted). Man's ability to deceive himself (be it thinking abortion is not murder or thinking it can't be stealing if I use the coercive power of government to take money from my neighbor to give to myself) is legendary but deep down we all know that God exists and God has given us all a conscience that can help us distinguish between right and wrong if we care to utilize it.

I am skeptical of everything, not just the bible. And if someone says 'Darwins book is competent. Don't think im not going to investigate and point out flaws. and demand answers. Same with the Quran, book of mormon or whatever the (holy writing) may be. And you should be that way too.

 

[CabVet]

Well , I think those matters you brought up are sort of trivial. I mean , weather David spent 50 or 800 sheckles of silver doesn't really change the landscape of Christianity.

Interesting how small contradictions are "trivial", but small historical accuracies of the Bible (just as small or smaller than those contradictions) are constantly used as "proof" that the Bible is the "true" religious book above all others.

 

[docpotter]

" Small " historical accuracies , such as the first Roman census being spot on as Luke said ?

 

[CabVet]

" Small " historical accuracies , such as the first Roman census being spot on as Luke said ?

Yes, that is not only small and trivial, but also contributes nothing to show that God exists.

 

[Buy Bologna]

The bible was written by man THROUGH God, therefor at least in my opinion the human may have written something wrong sometimes. Or alternativly, it just got translated wrong. I see that happen often. If you look at the diffrence between the KJV and NIV, a change of a few words makes a big diffrence in how you read it!

From what i understand it was written by GOD through man. God use man as a tool.

I dont really mind conmtradictions here and there. I anm not the greatest "believer" anyway, if that isin fact a virtue. I take the bible as a source of inspiration sometimes, e.g. in the proverbs, but to be honest I hardly ever read even them. I do go to chuurch and pray, but am not particularlty bothered whether it is all self delusion or not, I would probably continue anyway and try my best to blank the idea out.

I have no quarrels with this. It does have great illustraitions and stories of inspirations in it.

OK. I don't try to keep a list of every verse that unbelievers question. Doesn't the Bible have something like 30,000+ verses? I just don't have time to justify every verse.

So, I'm not going to go searching amongst Biblical scholars for answers to these particular verses unless there is one that becomes pertinent to our discussion. These are just some unrehearsed thoughts off the top of my head.

Fair enough and i wouldn't expect you to.

You're going to have to explain to me why these particular verses bother you and how you came upon them.

It's just the plain simple contradictions. And i come across them via other forum(s), skeptic sites and growing up having to read the bible.

what standard of reliability are you expecting?

Well, like an omniscience god wrote it if it's not too much too ask. One of my main problems with the bible is: Why would the True God use this tactic of using men to speak his word, when this is the same tactic all false religion use. Especially when (according to the bible) he can speak directly to us. (But he doesn't speak directly to us anymore even tho 'god does not change'...another contradiction according to my understanding since we are passing that thought).Or even write it with fire and lightening like he did with the 10 commandment tablets.

And I'll tell the Muslims the same darn thing. Why does your god (true from their POV) use the same communicate strategy, Using man to write your word? Same with Joseph Smith or even that idiot Ron Hubbard.

Christians use the bible for reference more often than the enclyopedia. So at least as reliable as that.

I'll take this one as an example. Did the Bible ever state a margin of error on these numbers? If not, how will you ever justify your expectations for a margin of error? Is it fair to apply modern standards for "crowd counting science", or is it a fairer judgement to understand what is trying to be presented here? I believe in Biblical inerrancy, so I'm not trying to brush off apparent contradictions, but we do need to set some reasonable expectations ... and I'll say a bit more about that after I address this specific instance.

What is the expected accuracy of modern crowd counting? Well, at first glance I found 2 references:

Here they quote 10% as the expected margin.



Here they quote 25% as the expected margin.

(1.1 million - 800,000) / 1.1 million = 27.2% difference. Not too far from what one source said, but what should we expect when we compare ancient crowd estimates with modern science?

Another question: How would you expect Biblical crowd estimates to compare with estimates from other ancient sources? Do you find all ancient sources to be unreliable? If so, does that mean history knows nothing of the past? I have a history degree, and this seems to be a common problem with lay questions about the Bible, i.e. that a very strict standard is demanded that historians don't apply.

But even beyond that, what is going on in the context of these 2 verses? Did you read the story that surrounds them? The census happened because David didn't trust in God. He wanted to be sure his army was strong enough. The man he sent to do the census, Joab, was offended by David's mistrust. Verse 6 makes it clear that Joab withheld information from David about the census. So, we have 2 different texts from 2 different authors. Is it possible one reported the actual count and one reported the count given to David?

- - -

OK. Some more about what we should expect from the Bible. There are several verses that give a relation between circumference and diameter as 3. Some complain that this is an error because that is not the value of pi. All such complaints reveal is a lack of understanding of mathematics. First, the Bible never claims to give the value of pi. Instead, it is giving instructions to workmen of the period for contructing various things - barrels, etc. Given the accuracy of the tools those workmen probably used, 3 is a satisfactory value. Second, had the Bible been using modern mathematical terminology, 3 is an accurate description of pi to 1 significant digit, and so expressing it as 3 is perfectly proper. Pi is a transcendental number. Anyone who understands what that means, realizes it would be impossible to write the "true" value of pi as a numeric representation. So are we going to ask God to write into the Bible things that a human could not possibly comprehend? That seems a very odd standard.

I will study your links and comments further b4 I comment further on this Resh, thanks.

The Bible is a divine revelation, not a textbook. Just as Christ was both man and God, so is the makeup of the Bible both man and Holy Spirit. The substance is divine, the form is human.

Analogically, you are like someone who might have examine the body of Jesus Christ while on earth and declared, "He cannot be God. He is flawed, just like us. He must defecate. He gets hungry. He gets sleepy."

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus of Nazareth (having emptied Himself of His deity) did not know that the earth revolved around the sun (even though He arranged it that way). Would that somehow "contradict" His deity?

This point is a bit off point other than the it not being a textbook.

So it's OK for the bible to have flaws? In your Opinion?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Best thing I can think of is I was told when non-believers want to argue/debate, they don't really care if you have the answers because it would mean they would have to stop sinning if God was real. And more importantly I was told you can't expect them to see it like a believer does.

I have no idea how to put this correctly but when you read the bible God will show you what it means, things will make sense. Wihtout sounding silly, its like being given the book to decode and unlock a secret message. Not all of the messages will make sense to a non believer until they truly believe in God.

Of course some would say, they are brainwashed and its why they don't see what an athiest does. But question is, if your an athiest, how can you doubt what we are saying about knowing it if you have not been one? Its like saying anyone can be a sniper, without having actually tried to snipe. Of course in this situation, its a bit more complex since you need to truly be a christian, not just accept God and be like "Ok, show me what I don't understand now!".