Personally, I've never studied this topic. But someone complained the bible isn't trustworthy because of contradictions. I'm sure there are those better able to tackle these questions them myself. Here they are:
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Bible Contradictions?
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Read the OP... these are questions someone asked me in another thread, so I presented them here to see if someone would be willing to answer them.
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dayhiker
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There are some cntradictions that are errors scribes made coping the text. Those cause me any issues.
The contraditions like if one loses his life he finds it speak to me of the complexxity of life. Some want life to be as simple as 1+1=2. But I just don't see life as being that simple. So I actaully think that most of these contraditions show that the Bible is dealing with the complexity of life. If one wanted God to be omniscient but not being able to be uniquely presant in one place limit God in how He can manifest His presance.
Well, I hope that simple comment isn't confusion .. LOL
dayhiker
The contraditions like if one loses his life he finds it speak to me of the complexxity of life. Some want life to be as simple as 1+1=2. But I just don't see life as being that simple. So I actaully think that most of these contraditions show that the Bible is dealing with the complexity of life. If one wanted God to be omniscient but not being able to be uniquely presant in one place limit God in how He can manifest His presance.
Well, I hope that simple comment isn't confusion .. LOL
dayhiker
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Personally, I don't worry about such things because my relationship is based on my personal experience with God through Jesus. God is real to me and his promises more then trustworthy.
I'm hoping someone better qualified then myself could attempt to reasonably answer the questions posed.
I'm hoping someone better qualified then myself could attempt to reasonably answer the questions posed.
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KCDAD
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What difference does that make? Is the Bible explainable or not?
So what is copier error and what isn't? How do you decide when there are two different statements?(You can't just pick the one you like?)
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Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Exodus 33:20-23 Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put theein a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
KCDAD, above is one of your contradictions. In two verses the text reads Moses spoke with God face to face and, in another verse "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me"
I can only assume that the term "face to face" was in reference to the "type" of relationship they had. And of course you are right I make that assumption in the light of all the text regarding the aforementioned. In that sense it is my faith which causes me to look at it in this light. By the same token your skepticism might cause you to assume otherwise.
Exodus 33:20-23 Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put theein a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
KCDAD, above is one of your contradictions. In two verses the text reads Moses spoke with God face to face and, in another verse "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me"
I can only assume that the term "face to face" was in reference to the "type" of relationship they had. And of course you are right I make that assumption in the light of all the text regarding the aforementioned. In that sense it is my faith which causes me to look at it in this light. By the same token your skepticism might cause you to assume otherwise.
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KCDAD
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I am sure it is talking about a certain intimacy that friends share. However, it is specific in that it says face to face... a literal interpretation means that they spoke face to face... not metaphorically "with the same intimacy that friends share".
That is my point: the Bible uses metaphors and imagery to convey spiritual truth not historical or factual truth.
So I actually agree there is no contradiction, and the Epistle of James clarifies this: "No man has seen the face of God." Moses was a man, so Moses did not see the face of God (or any other part of him)
It is clear that God did not write these passages. Man wrote them using what man has to communicate his ideas: words. God has no face, no hands or fingers, no back side, and certainly no voice. God is not a human being.
So I think we concur, however, there are others who call me Satan, evil and deluded because I dare to read and try to understand the entire Bible and not just a verse here and there. I can understand and explain all of these errors and contradictions in the Bible simply and without resorting to inventing stuff that isn't there.
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I suppose we concur in some degree, certainly not in everything. I don't think you are Satan. I think you are presenting a challenge to yourself and to us.
I do think God communicated with Moses. I do think Jesus was His Son, and, the one spoken of throughout the old testament, who was to come. I believe that, Jesus died for my sins and rose from the grave. I believe God, for whatever reasons has chosen to call us to himself by His Spirit rather then giving us some physical presentation. Instead He calls us with the "still small voice" of the Spirit; which since He is God, and since everything we experience in the physical is experienced in the brain, He could easily cause us to hear something audible without even disturbing the wind.
Any way... for me it's a matter of faith... and the proof that in my own experience exercising faith in His principles and promises brings the results promised.
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KCDAD
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ok ok ok ... hold on... what does Jesus, son or not, have to do with this discussion? Stick to the issue. Is the Bible a divine product or a human one? If divine, and therefor beyond human error, how are we to understand these problems I have listed and the many others that can be pointed out? If a human product then of course everything must be interpreted through language, culture and tradition. Errors mean nothing because they are expected.
We were talking about Moses and whether or not he saw God.
I'm reminded of a joke about "Jesus is the answer" Maybe so, but not to EVERYTHING question.
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I was just pointing out that I believe scriptures are true. Are there errors in scriptures.... well, I suppose there could be, that isn't an issue with me. The issue with me is, can a man receive from God, through scripture the intended knowledge therein for him to be saved and guided on his journey in this life... my answer is YES and, in that respect, scripture reflects perfectly God's design and desire for mankind.
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If not the bible, where and how do you form your beliefs? Freethinking, opinion, other books? Just wanting to know. I agree with a lot of what you say, but also
I'm a little lost to how you determine what you believe.
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You need to accept that the Bible is a book. Divinely inspired, perhaps, but the product of man's hands nonetheless. We worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Those three have the properties of the divine attached to them. We do not worship the Bible. It does not have those properties.
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KCDAD
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I read the everything I can get my hands on. I read History, Science, Geography, Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology and Theology.
I read stories from other cultures; Chinese, Native American, African, European.
I listen to people who think about life and what it means to be human... philosophers, poets, revolutionaries and rebels.
I read biographies of people who have made a difference in the world.
Oh, yeah.. I read the Bible... about 6 different translations regularly, including the Peshitta (from Aramaic rather than from Greek)
I prefer the New Oxford Annotated...
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R3quiem
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The verses you listed are fine examples of the minor contradictions located all throughout the Bible.
Much more puzzling to me, however, is the apparent moral contradiction between the Old and New Testaments. It seems that the core of each half of the Bible is opposite the other. The OT preaches separation and destruction of your enemies, gives examples of genocides, infanticides, and murder commanded by God, and in general seems to read like a summary of a powerful, jealous, pagan God. The NT, on the other hand, teaches people to love your enemies and do good for those who are against you.
Much more puzzling to me, however, is the apparent moral contradiction between the Old and New Testaments. It seems that the core of each half of the Bible is opposite the other. The OT preaches separation and destruction of your enemies, gives examples of genocides, infanticides, and murder commanded by God, and in general seems to read like a summary of a powerful, jealous, pagan God. The NT, on the other hand, teaches people to love your enemies and do good for those who are against you.
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Good point. Some people don't like these questions being asked. I believe in God, and can't imagine living a day or even an hour without His comfort. But I often wonder the same things. God is such a wonderful comfort to me and a life giving force, also according to scripture is a terror, if you're on His wrong side....
I believe it is true, however, it seems like a contradiction.
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marvmax
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For me the OT is a story of a patient Heavenly Father dealing with amazingly flawed individuals. That gives me hope because I'm a flawed individual myself.
The reason there are contradictions in the Bible is so that those who realize that the books included in the Bible were written by humans can marvel at the attempts, by those who believe the Bible can have no mistakes, twist and turn to show that the Bible is not saying what it is clearly saying.
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In my Chumash (Jewish Torah), the note to Ex 33:11 says: "Unlike other prophets, Moses did not need any sort of intermediary (R'Bachya) and he was fully conscious when God spoke to him (Sforno) -- like two people conversing with one another.
Hope this helps!
Hope this helps!
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dayhiker
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I've read some of the writtings of those that study textual critism. Quite a few of the textual copy errors have a few patterns that make it quite clear what the orginal copy error was. Sometimes we have older manuscripts that don't have a copy error. Sometimes people that know the ancient language know what letter(s) might be dropped, miss read or added for verious reasons. So I think in the end its only a few verses that are a real puzzle as to what the orginal text probably said.
In the end, most of the Bible is so well attested that these differances pose no problem as to what the Bible is saying about its major points. Take a course in this topic, most Bible colleges have one.
dayhiker
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