Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

☦Marius☦ said:

He's never had a drink in his life.

Click to expand...

Praise God; May the Lord's goodness continue to be upon you and your family (even if we disagree on this topic).

Francis Drake said:

More silly waffle.
Nobody is suggesting we should drink and drive.
I was merely pointing out the stupidity of using a man made law as proof that God says drinking alcohol is sinful.

You really are clutching at straws. But if you are so weak, fearful as a Christian, and unable to maintain moderation, then don't drink.
But you have no right to project your fearfulness on other believers.

Click to expand...

I have every right to warn Christians about the potential dangers of sin and it's destruction. Many struggle with alcoholism, and many who thought alcohol would not be a problem in their life had turned to the bottle during hard times in their life and thereby destroyed their life and the lives of others. You are saying there is nothing to fear; But countless lives are destroyed by this drug every year. Jesus says we can know a tree by it's fruit. The fruit of alcohol is not primarily good, but it is primarily bad. Instantly it seeks to attack your immune system because it is solely a drug and not a nutritional substance in any way. It's a tasty drug that offers no value to your life but it seeks to destroy you. It bites like a serpent.

Anyways, I say this in love so that you may see the truth on what alcohol really is. I say this in love so as to dedicate your life more to Jesus instead of a pleasure of this world.

May you be at peace and may God's goodness be upon you in the Lord.

Archivist said:

I see no sense in pursuing this discussion any further. As I said, this is what we get when people start with the belief that consumption of any alcohol is evil and bend scripture to support that view.

Click to expand...

But you really have not shown how I was bending Scripture in regards to how alcoholic beverages are evil. Even without Scripture, the fruits of alcohol itself speak for themselves. Alcohol offers no nutritional value and it is solely a flavorful drug that seeks to instantly attack your immune system. People who thought they would never get drunk and ruin their lives, have in fact done that at a later time in their life when things got hard for them. So it indeed bites like a serpent as the Bible says.

Jesus drank alcohol.

Click to expand...

No, He didn't. He would have violated Scripture in a number of places by doing so (For other readers here, see my Post #62 to see the six reasons in Scripture why Jesus made unfermented wine, i.e. fresh grape juice).

Not only does scripture say that he did,

Click to expand...

Again, Scripture does not state that Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

The dictionary defines the word "wine" as either an unfermented fruit juice or a fermented fruit juice. The context determines what kind of wine is being spoken of in the Bible.

Nowhere does it say that Jesus drank of the wine that is red and moves itself aright. Nowhere does it say that Jesus drank of the wine that bites like a serpent. Nowhere does it say that Jesus drank of a wine that intoxicates or causes bad judgment. Scripture says he drank of the "fruit of the vine" (Matthew 26:29). Ethanol is no longer the "fruit of the vine" but it is the by-product of the "fruit of the vine." If I were to chemically change the substance of an orange and it's juices into something else, it is no longer the fruit of an orange anymore. Think. There may be residual traces of the fruit, but if it's chemical substance is primarily something else and offers no nutritional value that the fruit of the vine would, then it is no longer the fruit of the vine.

You said:

but we know that wine was the common drink in that part of the world at that time. There was no way to preserve unfermented grape juice long term; it was made into wine.

Click to expand...

Not true; There are historical reports of men preserving grape juice by ancient means back then. Granted, the Israelite bought, stored, and transported fermented wine, but when it came time to drink it, they diluted it with water. Hence, why we see Scripture allude to this fact. In fact, history records how the Israelite had diluted their wine with water. So when we read verses on their buying wine and strong drink, this is not to be equated with their consumption of it in that state. Yes, they used it for medical reasons and to purify water, but it was not a social beverage. Only the Gentile barbarians drank undiluted wine that was not mixed with water. In fact, nothing has changed. There is nothing new under the sun. The Gentiles still drink strong intoxicating wine today and they continue to party with the use of this particular substance.

You said:

Jason, there is nothing wrong with choosing not to consume alcohol. It is wrong to tell that who responsibly consume alcohol that they are somehow violating God's word by doing so.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

You said:

The forecast here is for snow over the weekend, so I will probably be staying inside watching football. I have a bottle of a very good IPA in the refrigerator that I will be enjoying during one of the games. Cheers to those who will likewise be responsibly enjoying an alcoholic beverage this weekend!

Click to expand...

I pray that you will reconsider in not doing either of those activities and that you just read and study God's Word instead. But your life is your own (of course).

May God's goodness be upon you.

Jason0047 said:

The answer is that in the creation, God created all things and He declared it to be "very good." (Genesis 1:31). So obviously snakes and bread are not evil in and of themselves.

Click to expand...

Nor is wine sinful, but also "very good", and designed by God to be so.
Nor is drinking wine sinful, but also "very good" for man's pleasure, as intended by God

But drinking and eating to excess is obviously sinful.

God was talking to my heart this morning and Colossians 2:16 popped up by chance. After looking at Romans 14 again, and Colossians 2:16, I am falling back to my previous position (Which is "Abstentionism"). This is the view that Christians have a liberty in Christ to drink moderately as long as they do not get drunk; On the other hand, for matters of loving others and themselves the higher call is to abstain from alcohol if they can and or to one day put it away; For if you are like myself who has knowledge that alcohol is technically a poison, then you could not drink it for social reasons or with a meal because your conscience would condemn you.

Note: This does not apply for medical reasons so as to ease pain (When no other drug is easily or readily available, etc.).

Thank you everyone for challenging me.
While I do not agree with the Moderationist position on alcohol, I do agree now that it is not a sin for you to drink in moderation as long as you do not get drunk or intoxicated to an extent of loosing control. But like I said, the higher call in our maturing in Christ is to forsake all things in time and to follow Jesus.

May God bless you all this fine day.

Francis Drake said:

Nor is wine sinful, but also "very good", and designed by God to be so.
Nor is drinking wine sinful, but also "very good" for man's pleasure, as intended by God

But drinking and eating to excess is obviously sinful.

Click to expand...

May God bless you for your conscience in not being condemned.
Christians do have a liberty in Christ (all be it, I see it as a liberty of a lack of knowledge like in the Garden; But it is a liberty none the less).

Peace unto you in the Lord this fine day.

Jason0047 said:

No, the text says that the Israelites did not drink wine or strong drink so that they might KNOW that He is the Lord their God.

Click to expand...

Neither did they eat bread, or didn't you notice that?
As usual, you take one phrase out of context to prove a doctrine of demons.
Unless you are a complete moron, its obvious that the closing phrase on that -"that ye might know that I am the LORD your God".
applies not just to alcohol, but every other preceding phrase.

5 "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God." (Deuteronomy 29:5-6).

Click to expand...

Here's the full context which shows something quite different to your post.
I have added the words in red after each phrase of the passage to aid the full understanding and purpose. I should not have to do that, but given your abuse of scripture, I thought it might help to illustrate the intended purpose of the passage.
2Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the Lord did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land.
(that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)

3With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those signs and great wonders.
(that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)

4But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5Yet the Lord says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out,
(that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)
nor did the sandals on your feet.
(that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)

6You ate no bread
(that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)

and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so (that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.)

If that final phrase does not apply to all the preceding phrases, then the whole passage makes no sense.


As for the rest of your post, I can't be bothered with wasting my time.
If you want to continue, the you need to cut the massive size of your posts.
Thread after thread on this subject, you take the view that you can defeat opposing views just pumping out thousands and thousands of words.
Its obvious that you have the majority of this garbage stashed away on your computer ready to drown the thoughts of other Christians by shear quantity.

It won't work and I have no intention of wasting my time answering every tedious verse you post. Far too many are false leads.

Jason0047 said:

God was talking to my heart this morning and Colossians 2:16 popped up by chance. After looking at Romans 14 again, and Colossians 2:16, I am falling back to my previous position (Which is "Abstentionism"). This is the view that Christians have a liberty in Christ to drink moderately as long as they do not get drunk;

Click to expand...

I'm glad to see the change, but puzzled why have been so blind to those obvious scriptures all through this thread.

On the other hand, for matters of loving others and themselves the higher call is to abstain from alcohol if they can and or to one day put it away;

Click to expand...

I utterly deny this. Teetotalism is not a higher calling, any more than according to your scriptures, giving up bread would be.

For if you are like myself who has knowledge that alcohol is technically a poison, then you could not drink it for social reasons or with a meal because your conscience would condemn you.

Click to expand...

I am utterly convinced that alcohol is a poison, but with God's abundant blessing, I happily drink a glass of homebrew beer or wine every evening with my meal.
And my conscience is perfectly clean in doing so, and even as I type this post, I can feel the Holy Spirit joy rising in my spirit at such truth!

Thank you everyone for challenging me.
While I do not agree with the Moderationist position on alcohol, I do agree now that it is not a sin for you to drink in moderation as long as you do not get drunk or intoxicated to an extent of loosing control. But like I said, the higher call in our maturing in Christ is to forsake all things in time and to follow Jesus.

Click to expand...

There is no way that abstention is a higher calling. It merely shows your lack of self control.

Anyone can control a dog when it's on a lead, but to see how self controlled it is, you need to let it off the lead.

If the only way you can control the urges of alcohol is by complete abstention, then you are not in control, but fear of alcohol is in control of you!

Jason0047 said:

Praise God; May the Lord's goodness continue to be upon you and your family (even if we disagree on this topic).

Click to expand...

Oh he's never had a drink, but he's not a good person. He's actually the reason I left Christianity entirely for quite sometime.

I'm glad you have considered a different side to this topic though.

Jason0047 said:

May God bless you for your conscience in not being condemned.
Christians do have a liberty in Christ (all be it, I see it as a liberty of a lack of knowledge like in the Garden; But it is a liberty none the less).

Click to expand...

I presume you refer to the Garden of Eden?
If so, then I don't think you understand what went on in the garden, which had nothing to do with any lack of knowledge. (If anything, a massive excess of knowledge)

The Tree of Knowledge is about both good and evil knowledge, ie. knowledge of right or wrong.
But take note, knowledge of what was right/good brought death, just as knowledge of wrong/evil brought death.

Adam could have eaten of the tree of life, and sealed his dominion over earth by humbly surrendering himself to his maker. Instead he wanted to become like God for himself, a deadly decision which meant the rejection of his God and maker.

That's what God's warning of death referred to, Adam choosing his own spiritual death.

As regards alcohol, the answer is not more knowledge, its more spiritual wisdom, Tree of Life wisdom that is always available to anyone who asks God (Read James1)

Condemning those who drink alcohol as sinners is just man's own self righteousness eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
As such it is a stench in the nostrils of the Lord and reaps the fruits of death.

☦Marius☦ said:

Oh he's never had a drink, but he's not a good person. He's actually the reason I left Christianity entirely for quite sometime.

Click to expand...

I am sorry to hear that.

You said:

I'm glad you have considered a different side to this topic though.

Click to expand...

Thank you, but I believe it was God leading me to see it. I was working on a Bible project of mine and Colossians 2:16 came up on my screen. I then decided to do some research, and Romans 14 came up. It was double confirmation in a way for me. I am willing to admit when I am wrong if God shows me with Scripture. If someone was praying for me here, I want to say.... thank you.

Blessings to you in the Lord.

You don't have to drink, you know, its a choice. I never touch alcoholic beverage as a part of my allegiance to God. Others see it as unnecessary. God will judge. If you can't handle it, don't touch it. Simples.

Fish14 said:

In my opinion, drunkenness is the same as drinking alcohol.

Click to expand...

So....not only all of the Apostles, but Jesus Himself was a drunkard?

No.

Alcoholism might be your cross to bear. And it's a heavy one. YOU should not drink alcohol, because you are apparently unable to drink it in moderation.

But you have absolutely zero reason or legitimacy in trying to burden the consciences of others with your particular "demon", and characterizing the very act of drinking alcohol as "drunkenness".
It is false, and I'd even go so far as to say that it is demonic, as it is the same as ascribing drunkenness to Christ.

Jason0047 said:

I believe the Bible teaches that there are three kinds of wines.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 20:1) (Proverbs 23:31) (1 Timothy 3:1-3).

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 9:2) (1 Timothy 5:23).

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage)
(Genesis 40:11) (Isaiah 65:8) (Deuteronomy 32:14) (Matthew 26:29).​

I believe the Israelite bought, stored, and transported intoxicating fermented wine (Wine Type #1), and they used it to purify water, and ease pain, etc.; But when it came time to drink it for social reasons, or to have with a meal, they diluted it with several parts of water (Wine Type #2). History confirms this. Also, the Bible alludes to this fact, as well.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:
2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

Jesus made and only drank unfermented wine (a non-intoxicating beverage) (Wine Type #3). There are six reasons in Scripture that supports this fact (See my post #62).


Side Note:

Also, please see my two challenging statements (with Scripture) in Post #150. I would like to see how you would respond to them using the Bible.

Click to expand...

Disagree ... I've had this argument before, don't care to rehash it. Good day.