Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

[Bible Highlighter]

The acceptance of blood alcohol levels to drive in different countries:

Drink Driving Limits UK & Worldwide – Drinkdriving.org

While it is .08 here the States, it is less in some other countries.

The point here is that countries make laws like these because they know that alcohol effects your use of how to properly operate a motor vehicle so as not to get into an accident.

 

[☦Marius☦]

There is no safe dose of alcohol for these reasons:

• Alcohol is a toxin that kills cells such as microorganisms, which is why we use it to preserve food and sterilise skin, needles etc. Alcohol kills humans too. A dose only four times as high as the amount that would make blood levels exceed drink-driving limits in the UK can kill. The toxicity of alcohol is worsened because in order for it to be cleared from the body it has to be metabolised to acetaldehyde, an even more toxic substance. Any food or drink contaminated with the amount of acetaldehyde that a unit of alcohol produces would be immediately banned as having an unacceptable health risk.

• Although most people do not become addicted to alcohol on their first drink, a small proportion do. As a clinical psychiatrist who has worked with alcoholics for more than 30 years, I have seen many people who have experienced a strong liking of alcohol from their very first exposure and then gone on to become addicted to it. We cannot at present predict who these people will be, so any exposure to alcohol runs the risk of producing addiction in some users.

• The supposed cardiovascular benefits of a low level of alcohol intake in some middle-aged men cannot be taken as proof that alcohol is beneficial. To do that one would need a randomised trial where part of this group drink no alcohol, others drink in small amounts and others more heavily. Until this experiment has been done we don't have proof that alcohol has health benefits. A recent example of where an epidemiological association was found not to be true when tested properly was hormone replacement therapy. Population observations suggested that HRT was beneficial for post-menopausal women, but when controlled trials were conducted it was found to cause more harm than good.

• For all other diseases associated with alcohol there is no evidence of any benefit of low alcohol intake – the risks of accidents, cancer, ulcers etc rise inexorably with intake.

Source used:
There is no such thing as a safe level of alcohol consumption | Professor David Nutt

Then why does Paul recommend it to Timothy? First you say the Jews delute it so it was safe, then you say there is no safe dosage. You keep flip flopping because there is no actual consistant backing for what you are saying.

 

[☦Marius☦]

The acceptance of blood alcohol levels to drive in different countries:

Drink Driving Limits UK & Worldwide – Drinkdriving.org

While it is .08 here the States, it is less in some other countries.

The point here is that countries make laws like these because they know that alcohol effects your use of how to properly operate a motor vehicle so as not to get into an accident.

Yeah in metric.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Not true. The Bible says they drank of the "fruit of the vine" in the Lord's supper. The fruit of the vine is not ethanol (Which is a different substance than fresh fruit juices that are from the vine). Alcohol is the poop (by-product) of the yeast after it eats the fruit of the vine.

Passover is months after fruit harvesting season. It would absolutely have been fermented at that point just to be preserved.

We are talking 10ish months

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol you sound like you've never drunk before yet are trying to tell me how my body reacts? There is a reason there is a legal amount of blood alcohol content.

I used to drink and I have gotten drunk before.
After becoming a Christian, drinking did not hold that much appeal to me, but friends did later influence me to drink, so I drank socially on certain occasions. It was not until I studied the Bible that I formed a real opinion about it.

Most have already planted their feet deep in the ground and have entrenched themselves in a position for alcohol without really studying the Bible on this matter to see if they might be wrong.

Also as for the Jews- you keep saying they deluted the wine, yet what evidence do you have? Do you really think that they were so different then us that they didn't drink wine for the effect as well? The Bible even warns against strong drink, so they clearly had stronger alcohols that they drank.

The Bible itself alludes to it, and other historical documents confirm that they mixed their wine with water.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

You are creating a false scenario around a complete manipulation of the few verses you can find that come somewhat close to your claim (despite them teaching self control and not complete a abstinence).

No one is going to be taken in by this false narrative because to the rest of us it's pretty obvious.

So you don't think "sober minded" or to be "sober" is talking about actually being sober? That's really a slipper slope there. It sounds like you simply do not want those verses that talk about being sober to be true because you favor alcohol.

 

[SPF]

I said, "The word used in the above passage unfortunately is the same word in the #1 passages.
The bottom line really is that there are numerous examples in Scripture of people drinking alcohol and it simply not considered a sin in context."

Jason responded with:
not at all. Please show me one. Just because the word "wine" appears does not mean it is talking about fermented wine. You have to show that by the context. Dictionaries define the word "wine" as either a fermented fruit juice or an unfermented fruit juice. People today just automatically think of alcohol when they hear the word "wine" and that is their own party driven culture influencing their thinking on the matter.

I shouldn't have to do this for you, so it is a little annoying. If you're going to pass yourself off as credible in this discussion, then you should be a little more educated. But I'll do this for you, since you need it.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

The Hebrew word used for strong drink in this sentence is:
hêkâr
shay-kawr'
From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.

Deuteronomy 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

The Hebrew word used in the above passage is the same word as the one used in the Proverbs passage. There is no indication in this text about them taking the strong drink and first diluting it before drinking. You have to make an assumption to get there. You have to do something called isegesis, which is reading into Scripture to force your belief. This is bad hermeneutics, and frankly, can be ignored.

Again, the passages, especially in the NT that speak against drinking don't in fact speak against drinking. They speak against drunkenness. If drinking itself was the sin, then the language used in the NT would be different.

the Israelite bought fermented wine, stored fermented wine, and even traveled with fermented wine, but the way they drank it was in a diluted state.

If you're claiming that Jews always, 100% of the time did this, then you'll need to support this claim with actual historical data.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol you sound like you've never drunk before yet are trying to tell me how my body reacts? There is a reason there is a legal amount of blood alcohol content.

Also as for the Jews- you keep saying they deluted the wine, yet what evidence do you have? Do you really think that they were so different then us that they didn't drink wine for the effect as well? The Bible even warns against strong drink, so they clearly had stronger alcohols that they drank.

You are creating a false scenario around a complete manipulation of the few verses you can find that come somewhat close to your claim (despite them teaching self control and not complete a abstinence).

No one is going to be taken in by this false narrative because to the rest of us it's pretty obvious.

Extra Biblical source:

2 Maccabees 15:39 says,
"For just as it is harmful to drink wine alone, or, again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment, so also the style of the story delights the ears of those who read the work. And here will be the end."

 

[☦Marius☦]

I used to drink and I have gotten drunk before.
After becoming a Christian, drinking did not hold that much appeal to me, but friends did later influence me to drink, so I drank socially on certain occasions. It was not until I studied the Bible that I formed a real opinion about it.

Most have already planted their feet deep in the ground and have entrenched themselves in a position for alcohol without really studying the Bible on this matter to see if they might be wrong.



The Bible itself alludes to it, and other historical documents confirm that they mixed their wine with water.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.



So you don't think "sober minded" or to be "sober" is talking about actually being sober? That's really a slipper slope there. It sounds like you simply do not want those verses that talk about being sober to be true because you favor alcohol.

It's only a slippery slope to someone with a brain that thinks only in utter extremes.

Like my stepdad saying
"Anyone who's taken a drink is an alcoholic"

What kind of brainwashing is necessary to get to that level

I already explained what I know "sober minded" to mean.

 

[☦Marius☦]

2 Maccabees 15:39 says,
"For just as it is harmful to drink wine alone, or, again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment, so also the style of the story delights the ears of those who read the work. And here will be the end."

So what's the percentage? Half? A forth?

It's enough to give flavor and kill bacteria. That means there is enough to intoxicate

 

[Francis Drake]

Christians are told to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

The first sip of alcohol makes you less sober minded than you were before because it instantly starts to work at impairing your good judgment.

You are arrogantly cursing something that God has given as a blessing to his people.
Amos9v13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Just because you have no self control over eating and drinking in excess, it doesn't mean others don't!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I said, "The word used in the above passage unfortunately is the same word in the #1 passages.
The bottom line really is that there are numerous examples in Scripture of people drinking alcohol and it simply not considered a sin in context."

Jason responded with:
not at all. Please show me one. Just because the word "wine" appears does not mean it is talking about fermented wine. You have to show that by the context. Dictionaries define the word "wine" as either a fermented fruit juice or an unfermented fruit juice. People today just automatically think of alcohol when they hear the word "wine" and that is their own party driven culture influencing their thinking on the matter.

I shouldn't have to do this for you, so it is a little annoying. If you're going to pass yourself off as credible in this discussion, then you should be a little more educated. But I'll do this for you, since you need it.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

The Hebrew word used for strong drink in this sentence is:
hêkâr
shay-kawr'
From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.

Deuteronomy 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

The Hebrew word used in the above passage is the same word as the one used in the Proverbs passage. There is no indication in this text about them taking the strong drink and first diluting it before drinking. You have to make an assumption to get there. You have to do something called isegesis, which is reading into Scripture to force your belief. This is bad hermeneutics, and frankly, can be ignored.

Again, the passages, especially in the NT that speak against drinking don't in fact speak against drinking. They speak against drunkenness. If drinking itself was the sin, then the language used in the NT would be different.

If you're claiming that Jews always, 100% of the time did this, then you'll need to support this claim with actual historical data.

Okay. First, this is not my first rodeo on discussing alcohol. I have talked at considerable length for about a couple of hundred of pages if you were to count up the total of my discussion on the various different Christian forums on this topic. I have learned many things about alcohol and the Bible in light of my ongoing study of it over the years.

Second, as I pointed out before, just because the word "wine" appears in the Bible does not mean it is talking about fermented wine in every case. I believe there three kinds of wines mentioned in the Bible. It depends on the context.

The word "wine" in the Bible can refer to unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice).

In verse 7 of Isaiah chapter 65, the Lord is warning about how he is about to bring judgment upon Israel and repay them for the wickedness they had done (Isaiah 65:7 KJV). In verse 8 (Isaiah 65:8 KJV), the Lord compares this judgment upon Israel as if He is about to crush a grape within in His hand.

For the Lord says,

"As the new wine is found in the cluster"​

And then a voice replies,

"Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it"​

Then the Lord answers,

"So will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."​

The "new wine" is said to be within the cluster of the grape. This "new wine" is obviously the fresh juice in the cluster. For the voice had pleaded with the Lord to destroy not the cluster of the grape that had the new wine because there was a blessing within it. In other words, there is a blessing within the cluster. Inside the cluster is juice. This juice is called a blessing and it is called "new wine." The blessing within the cluster is not alcoholic wine. Grapes do not grow off the vine as alcoholic wine. They need time to ferment.

Let me put it to you another way.

Those Moderationists who propose that the word "wine" can only be a reference to "alcoholic wine", then this passage would not make any sense and it would be like me saying...

As new orange smoothy juice is found within the ball of an orange.

Then someone yells out,

Please, do not destroy the orange smoothy juice that is inside that orange. I beg you. I like smoothies. Especially when they are mixed with lots of creamy milk.

However, such a statement would not make any sense. It is only fresh and new natural orange juice that is within the ball of an orange. Orange smoothies are a result of something you do later to the orange juice. Orange smoothie juice is not found within the ball of an orange anymore than alcoholic wine is found within the cluster of a grape.

In other words, only new unfermented wine (Grape juice) is found inside the cluster of the grape; Not old fermented alcoholic wine.

For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then why does Paul recommend it to Timothy? First you say the Jews delute it so it was safe, then you say there is no safe dosage. You keep flip flopping because there is no actual consistant backing for what you are saying.

This was in context to social reasons and not rare occasions for medical reasons to ease pain, and or to purify water, etc. The doctor is obviously not referring to ancient times under certain circumstances, but he is referring to our culture today in light of social consumption.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are arrogantly cursing something that God has given as a blessing to his people.
Amos9v13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

Just because you have no self control over eating and drinking in excess, it doesn't mean others don't!

Wine can be referred to in three different ways according to the Bible. So you are assuming something that I don't actually believe. You automatically assume that it is consumed as intoxicating wine just because the word "wine" is there. Dictionaries say that wine can be in reference to either unfermented fruit juice or fermented fruit juice. You are automatically concluding fermented wine when the text may not even say that in every case. Yes, in some cases in the Bible, it refers to intoxicating wine, but in other cases this is not always the case like with Isaiah 65:8.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's only a slippery slope to someone with a brain that thinks only in utter extremes.

Like my stepdad saying
"Anyone who's taken a drink is an alcoholic"

I would not say that everyone who has taken a drink is an alcoholic.
However, I would say that they are destroying themselves if they drink moderately on a regular basis and they are opening themselves to potential drunkenness or harm to themselves and others.

What kind of brainwashing is necessary to get to that level

So he was tied down in a chair, and his eyes were forced open to watch imagery and words to condition his mind to think that way?

Surely, he had a bad experience with alcohol and he could be speaking out in truth against it to some degree and yet speaking untruth in defense of it, too. Sometimes people can speak the truth to a certain degree but from an uninformed position (without really studying it and by being objective).

I already explained what I know "sober minded" to mean.

Sober means to be sober minded. It means to not be intoxicated by spirits and to be alert. You are not as alert if you did not have alcohol vs. having alcohol. You can make an attempt to try and change that word in the Bible but I would not advise it.

 

[SPF]

Okay. First, this is not my first rodeo on discussing alcohol. I have talked at considerable length for about a couple of hundred of pages if you were to count up the total of my discussion on the various different Christian forums on this topic. I have learned many things about alcohol and the Bible in light of my ongoing study of it over the years.

Second, as I pointed out before, just because the word "wine" appears in the Bible does not mean it is talking about fermented wine in every case. I believe there three kinds of wines mentioned in the Bible. It depends on the context.

The word "wine" in the Bible can refer to unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice).

In verse 7 of Isaiah chapter 65, the Lord is warning about how he is about to bring judgment upon Israel and repay them for the wickedness they had done (Isaiah 65:7 KJV). In verse 8 (Isaiah 65:8 KJV), the Lord compares this judgment upon Israel as if He is about to crush a grape within in His hand.

For the Lord says,

"As the new wine is found in the cluster"​

And then a voice replies,

"Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it"​

Then the Lord answers,

"So will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."​

The "new wine" is said to be within the cluster of the grape. This "new wine" is obviously the fresh juice in the cluster. For the voice had pleaded with the Lord to destroy not the cluster of the grape that had the new wine because there was a blessing within it. In other words, there is a blessing within the cluster. Inside the cluster is juice. This juice is called a blessing and it is called "new wine." The blessing within the cluster is not alcoholic wine. Grapes do not grow off the vine as alcoholic wine. They need time to ferment.

Let me put it to you another way.

Those Moderationists who propose that the word "wine" can only be a reference to "alcoholic wine", then this passage would not make any sense and it would be like me saying...

As new orange smoothy juice is found within the ball of an orange.

Then someone yells out,

Please, do not destroy the orange smoothy juice that is inside that orange. I beg you. I like smoothies. Especially when they are mixed with lots of creamy milk.

However, such a statement would not make any sense. It is only fresh and new natural orange juice that is within the ball of an orange. Orange smoothies are a result of something you do later to the orange juice. Orange smoothie juice is not found within the ball of an orange anymore than alcoholic wine is found within the cluster of a grape.

In other words, only new unfermented wine (Grape juice) is found inside the cluster of the grape; Not old fermented alcoholic wine.

For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.

I'm confused about what point you're trying to make in reference to my post.

Deuteronomy 14:26 - "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Are you suggesting that in this passage the author is referring to non-fermented grapes? While you may have spent a lot of time arguing from your couch, your lack of understanding how to do proper hermenutical discussions is apparent. Words matter. I haven't seen you once ever reference the Hebrew or Greek words and what they mean. The most I've ever seen you do is quote a modern English dictionary.

The point of my post is that we have a clear passage in Scripture, which clearly references fermented, alcoholic, and specifically STRONG alcohol and not in the context of its consumption being sinful.

Also, again, it's important to note that the passages, particularly in the NT that speak against alcohol, don't actually speak against alcohol, they speak about drunkenness. That is important. If drinking any alcohol was sinful, then Scripture wouldn't continually and consistently reference drunkenness as opposed to simply consumption.

And a further problem you create for yourself is by using a logical argument that drinking any alcohol makes you less sober than not drinking any alcohol, and that therefore means it's sin because anything less than 100% soberness is apparently sin. This logic fails the consistency test.

First off, you are forced to conclude that there is an exception clause in Scripture to this logic - Timothy drinking due to sickness. Thus, to be consistent, you must acknowledge that soberness is not important or necessary when taking medicine. This is good because there are a lot of medicines that leave people not entirely sober. For example, all pain medicine. Thank goodness this exception clause exists otherwise it would be a sin to take excedrin.

Secondly, you haven't provided a clear definition of sober in the first place. You assert that even a sip of alcohol is sin because one sip will make you something less than 100% sober, even if it is 99.95% sober. Well, what does sober mean? We would then need to take that definition of sober and see if anything other than alcohol affects sobriety. I think we would find based upon your extreme definition, that things like chocolate, or french fries, or coffee, or a soothing hot tea, might make us 99.95% sober, and therefore to be consistent we would have to say that all those things are sin too.

Bottom line, your logic doesn't get much past highschool level. Your hermeneutics don't make it past Sunday School, and Scripture speaks against drunkenness, not alcohol.

 

[Archivist]

It's not my opinion. Stop and think for a moment. Jesus is holy, right? Is not yeast used in wine making? Was not yeast a picture or symbol of sin within the Bible? The wine represents Jesus's blood that washes away our sins. If the wine had yeast in it, that means that sin was in His blood. How could sinful blood wash away sin? Jesus bore our sins within his body and it is His shed blood that washes away our sins.

But it is your interpretation. Myself and the vast majority of Christians through the centuries have not read Scripture that way. Again, you are entitled to you interpretation.

There are so many other things like this, that you have to willingly ignore in order to make your defense of alcohol actually work.

The plain language of Scripture says otherwise.

Not at the expense of the context or in light of what the rest of the Bible says.

But believing that the moderate consumption of alcohol is not sinful is not in disagreement with what Scripture says. Jesus drank alcohol. That is clear from scripture.

Your avoidance of the answer suggests that you may not have ever done such a thing. Oh, and yes; I did do so myself on this topic. There was a point where I did not know what to believe on this topic when I first studied it and I prayed and compared Scripture with Scripture and read tons of articles online on the subject. But the more I studied, I went from being Undecided, to being an Abstentionist, to studying some more and I have now become a Prohibitionist (Not because I wanted to be one, but because that is where Scripture has led me).

But I have not avoided answering. As I have said, there is nothing in scripture condeming the moderate use of alcohol. Zero. Nicht. Nada.

Not true. The Bible says they drank of the "fruit of the vine" in the Lord's supper. The fruit of the vine is not ethanol (Which is a different substance than fresh fruit juices that are from the vine). Alcohol is the poop (by-product) of the yeast after it eats the fruit of the vine.

No they drank wine, a beverage that includes alcohol. There was no way at that time to preserve unfermented grape juice.

 

[Francis Drake]

How does glorifying a substance by partaking in it's making glorify God?

Easy, I do all things to the glory of God!
1Cor10v31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
I make my beer and wine to the glory of God, and I drink it with thanks to the glory of God.

Alcoholic beverages of today is one of the top killers here in America because it is highly addictive and get easily lead to drunkenness and alcoholism and can potentially harm others in many ways beyond your imagining.

Maybe we should also ban cars, because they kill lots of people.

Also, I know of no Christian Prohibitionists who think that alcohol does not ferment.

Really? I have argued against you on this subject many times, and on one thread, one of your fellow travellers insisted vehemently that the wine in the bible was non alcoholic.

Granted, there are cases where intense rainy seasons can wash off the natural yeast on grapes and prevent natural fermentation. But you make it sound like the grapes are already alcoholic by the way you talk about wine.

I never said that at all.
However, if you keep a bunch of grapes, the natural yeast will very soon start fermenting the sugars and turn the grapes alcoholic with no effort of man.

Furthermore, unless you believe teetotalers are in on some kind of conspiracy to corrupt history, history confirms that there were methods of preserving grape juice in ancient times. But you would actually have to do the research to discover that fact for yourself. If not, then you believe whatever you want to believe in favor of a drug that destroys lives every day.

Whatever external mythology you draw on to support your obsession, it will never demonstrate that God condemns alcohol.

But this is irrelevant because the Israelite bought, stored, and transported wine in in it's fermented state, and then when it came time to drink it, they diluted it with water of it's intoxicating effects.

I am sure alcohol got diluted occasionally, but so what, it proves nothing.
And according to your posts, the slightest sip of alcohol will kill, so how does dilution do any better than someone drinking within sensible limits.

Wine was also useful in purifying bad water and in easing extreme pain. But if the wine at the wedding of Cana was alcoholic, then Jesus would be contributing to their drunkenness because it says that they were "well drunk" with whatever substance that they were partaking in at the wedding.

Of course the alcohol Jesus made at Cana was alcoholic, how else would it be the best wine?

 

[Der Alte]

You are avoiding the issue here. Do you believe John 2:10 is talking about a wedding party that was already intoxicated or drunk? Yes, or no? Do you believe Jesus made even more intoxicating wine and that he contributed to their drunkenness? Yes, or no?

What part of my previous posts do you not understand? As I have shown with real evidence is the wine that was served at the Cana wedding was real, fermented, alcohol content wine. The 1st century Jews had no means to have fresh grape juice from the previous years wine harvest 9 months earlier. And the wine that Jesus provided was better than the previous wine.

Right, we don't have a time machine to confirm those historical documents, but why would they lie about such things in history? Did the teetotalers produce this information in history as a part of some conspiracy?

You provided no historical documents. You vaguely referred to some alleged historical evidence but did not quote them directly or identify them.

Did you just copy and paste this from somewhere?

How does that really prove what you are saying?

Try actually reading my posts. I clearly identified my sources. I quoted from 4 sources which show that Paul was not talking about mixing water with wine.

As I pointed out before, silver is mixed with another element for it to be durable. Silver becomes dross because they have taken away the silver from the other element and it less silver and more of the other element. So the mixing is not the issue here. Wine was mixed with water as we can see by Paul himself. He says have a little wine with your water. We are told not to look at wine when it is red in the cup and it moves itself aright. This is because it is wine that is fully fermented and undiluted by water. The problem in Isiah 1:22 is not the issue that it has water, but that it is so diluted by water that it no longer has any element of the wine in it to enjoy it.

Paul said nothing about mixing water with wine. Your assumptions about Isaiah 1:22 are not valid or relevant.

The Bible alludes to it by the verses I have shown, and it is confirmed by historical sources during that time period (unless you think there was some conspiracy by teetotalers corrupting history or something

Your assumption what verses supposedly allude to are wrong and irrelevant. Again you have not provided any historical evidence.

 

[Francis Drake]

If you know something is a sin,

Getting drunk is a sin, but there is nowhere in scripture that says drinking wine is a sin.

would you not speak out against it and warn your fellow brethren out of love so as to lead them into paths of righteousness for the Lord's name sake?

Its self righteousness and pride that makes you rant against alcohol not love.

I know I sure would. So what you call judging, I call preaching the truth of God's Word.

You are preaching lies that also condemn God's bountiful provision to Israel, as written clearly in scripture.

What you call judging is my loving others enough to warn them of the destruction of what this thing called alcohol can do to their lives.

Pride and self righteousness, not love.

 

[Francis Drake]

The acceptance of blood alcohol levels to drive in different countries:

Drink Driving Limits UK & Worldwide – Drinkdriving.org

While it is .08 here the States, it is less in some other countries.

The point here is that countries make laws like these because they know that alcohol effects your use of how to properly operate a motor vehicle so as not to get into an accident.

So you are now judging scripture by human laws? Great.

Most people would agree that excess alcohol is bad, but moderation of good wine and beer is delightful, as indeed God intended it to be.