Bible as science book

DashAdams

New Member
Mar 27, 2017
1
1
34
U.S.
✟8,089.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Something has been bothering me for quite some time now that I would like to get some input on. A lot of people reference the Bible as a history book or science book, basically quote it as fact. That is what troubles me and brings me to my question.

If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?

If you took an English version and had it translated to Spanish and then back again, I can guarantee there will be changes between each version. But now do that over and over and over for so many years. How can people be certain what is in the Bible today is what was in it 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago especially when ways of reproducing text were horribly unreliable throughout history??

All it would've taken is one tired person typing "John" instead of "Jesus" and we have a new story being printed and distributed. It's like if we were playing telephone between languages but with a book.

So if it's likely that there are inconsistencies with it, how is it still quoted as being true?
 
  • Like
Reactions: JD16

JD16

What Would Evolution Do?
Site Supporter
Jan 21, 2017
819
587
Melbourne
✟64,888.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Hi, and welcome to CF,

To give you an idea of some of the stuff that some people believe in this forum, may I refer you to this thread

Setting the Record Straight

If you can read the OP without getting cancer, you've pass the test, and if you can believe that, is there anything that can't you believe?

And the answer to any question is Goddidit

Good luck
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,890
Pacific Northwest
✟732,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Something has been bothering me for quite some time now that I would like to get some input on. A lot of people reference the Bible as a history book or science book, basically quote it as fact. That is what troubles me and brings me to my question.

If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?

If you took an English version and had it translated to Spanish and then back again, I can guarantee there will be changes between each version. But now do that over and over and over for so many years. How can people be certain what is in the Bible today is what was in it 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago especially when ways of reproducing text were horribly unreliable throughout history??

All it would've taken is one tired person typing "John" instead of "Jesus" and we have a new story being printed and distributed. It's like if we were playing telephone between languages but with a book.

So if it's likely that there are inconsistencies with it, how is it still quoted as being true?

There's a couple points I'd offer:

1) The Bible hasn't been translated back and forth between languages. The books of the Bible have been translated many times, but it's not back and forth. When you pick up an English translation you are getting a Bible that was translated from Hebrew and Aramaic texts (Old Testament) and Greek texts (New Testament), the exception to this is that some translations use the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic Text, but that's rare and also there are some books of the Deuterocanonicals (books found in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles but not usually in Protestant Bibles) which were originally written in Greek or which we only have Greek translations (via the Septuagint). The source texts used by Bible translators are original language texts, critical editions based upon careful study of hundreds, even thousands, of available manuscripts. And a good Bible usually points out in the marginal notes where there are variances in the manuscripts, and thus alternate readings are often provided.

2) Very few Christians believe the Bible is a "history book" or a "science book", that really isn't how the majority of Christians look to our Scriptures, we understand our Scriptures as a collection of writings which have been received and confessed down through the centuries to be read in the church as part of our worship--the purpose of the Bible is to build up and edify our faith and point us to Jesus. Early Christian statements to this regard include St. Augustine who spoke of Christ as the "One Utterance" of Scripture; which is how most Christians understand and read our Scriptures: as being about Christ, Christ is their chief subject, and they are read that we might hear and encounter Him. In traditional, orthodox Christian teaching it is Jesus Christ that is God's Word, not a text. The Bible, therefore, isn't a book of rules, or a book of propositions, or a book at all, but a library of books which exist for the edification of Christian faith, to shape Christian practice, and direct our focus to where it properly belongs: on Jesus. It's quite important that early Christians understood this, which is why you often find non-literal readings of the creation stories:

"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? And that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life? And again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally." - Origen of Alexandria, c. 200 CE

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." - St. Augustine of Hippo, c. 400 CE

The above is a warning then later echoed by St. Thomas Aquinas,

"First, that the truth of Scripture be held without wavering. Second, that since sacred Scripture can be explained in many ways, one should adhere to no explanation so precipitously that he would [still] presume to assert this understanding of Scripture [even if] it were [later] agreed, because of a certain argument, that this position is wrong—lest Scripture be mocked by unbelievers because of this, and the way of believing be blocked for them." - St. Thomas Aquinas, 1265-1274 CE

The insistence on a woodenly literal reading of the creation stories, and what we would term Young Earth Creationism is, largely speaking, a rather modern idea. It didn't even really become widespread in Fundamentalist and Evangelical circles until the 1960's and 70's. One can find more literal interpretations of those texts throughout history, just as one can find non-literal ones; but the sort of dogmaticism we see in the modern Creationist movement is entirely modern, a phenomenon of the 20th and 21st centuries.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Get any good translation of a bible and lok at the footnotes in it. They will show you the areas where there are questions about how to translate or understand that verse/sentance.
There are not that many questionable passages.

Is the bible a history book? Yes it is, a history of Gods dealing with man and the people of Israel.
Is it accurate or trustworthy? Yes it is, critics have laughed at the bible for its talking about imaginary peope like the hittites, untill they were found to be real people.
It's worth noting that historians have a high regard for the accuracy of the bible, but that those who have a reason to have a bias against the bible rubbish it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,799.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Get any good translation of a bible and lok at the footnotes in it. They will show you the areas where there are questions about how to translate or understand that verse/sentance.
There are not that many questionable passages.

Is the bible a history book? Yes it is, a history of Gods dealing with man and the people of Israel.
Is it accurate or trustworthy? Yes it is, critics have laughed at the bible for its talking about imaginary peope like the hittites, untill they were found to be real people.
It's worth noting that historians have a high regard for the accuracy of the bible, but that those who have a reason to have a bias against the bible rubbish it.

Sure, some parts will be historically accurate some won't, it's a collection of writings with different themes, authors and genres. Critical thinking is required.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And the way any written matterial is read is to give it the benefit of the doubt untill it is shown to be unreliable.
The bible has been shown to be reliable in many, many areas so in those areas were there are questions, it should be presumed to be reliable untill proven otherwise.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,652
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟104,175.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Something has been bothering me for quite some time now that I would like to get some input on. A lot of people reference the Bible as a history book or science book, basically quote it as fact. That is what troubles me and brings me to my question.

The Bible is not a science book, and only creationists think it is. Much of it is history, albeit history theologically interpreted. But, then again, much of it isn't even written in the form of history. How is a letter "historical?" - or unhistorical, for that matter?


If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?

If you took an English version and had it translated to Spanish and then back again, I can guarantee there will be changes between each version. But now do that over and over and over for so many years. How can people be certain what is in the Bible today is what was in it 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago especially when ways of reproducing text were horribly unreliable throughout history??

Translations of the Bible are always made directly from the original Greek and Hebrew.


All it would've taken is one tired person typing "John" instead of "Jesus" and we have a new story being printed and distributed. It's like if we were playing telephone between languages but with a book.

There are thousands of Greek NewTestament manuscripts available, and thousands more in languages other than Greek. There are also people called textual critics, whose job it is to establish what was originally written on the basis of that almost embarrasing wealth of evidence.

Why do atheists never entertain the same doubts about the veracity of other ancient writings, such as Plato, even though the manuscript evidence for them is a tiny fraction of that available for the NT?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Colter
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,138
51,515
Guam
✟4,910,135.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?
No.

In terms of the entropy of the Bible: H = Ø

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Other scholars got to me before you did!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,197
9,967
The Void!
✟1,133,801.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Something has been bothering me for quite some time now that I would like to get some input on. A lot of people reference the Bible as a history book or science book, basically quote it as fact. That is what troubles me and brings me to my question.

If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?

If you took an English version and had it translated to Spanish and then back again, I can guarantee there will be changes between each version. But now do that over and over and over for so many years. How can people be certain what is in the Bible today is what was in it 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago especially when ways of reproducing text were horribly unreliable throughout history??

All it would've taken is one tired person typing "John" instead of "Jesus" and we have a new story being printed and distributed. It's like if we were playing telephone between languages but with a book.

So if it's likely that there are inconsistencies with it, how is it still quoted as being true?

This thread needs to be moved to the Christian Apologetics forum. Moderators? Are you there?

Funny how the simple inclusion of the concept of "science book" as a context for discussion turns the subject of bible translation into something that qualifies for "Physical and Life Sciences," when the actual focus is on the reliability of the Bible (and/or its translation). :confused:
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Radrook
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,270
36,593
Los Angeles Area
✟829,982.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
If the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated between nearly every language and has been reproduced countless times, wouldn't some of the information be skewed or incorrect due to being lost in translation?

Modern translators look to use the oldest manuscripts, and use all the tools of textual criticism to attempt to restore the original text, much as is done for the works of the ancient Romans and Greeks. There are known copyist errors, and there are always the unknown unknowns, especially for the Old Testament, which doubtless originated in an oral form centuries before it was first set down in writing. The New Testament circulated as oral stories for some decades before being set down. But it's certainly not true that translations keep getting worse and worse. If anything, they are likely to slowly improve as the same original texts are analyzed by better modern scholarship. (Or if nothing else, as our own language changes, translations will have to change to make sure we can read our own translation.)

So if it's likely that there are inconsistencies with it, how is it still quoted as being true?

Well, there's two kindsa believers. Some have no problem with what I've said above, and despite the human errors, the story in general is clear and trustworthy. These are generally not the people who are going to insist that the earth is 6000 years old.

Then there are the people who veer towards bibliolatry -- the Bible (whichever version, most likely the KJV) is the authoritative and perfect word of their god. The Holy Spirit may even have interceded to make sure translations remain perfect. Once you lock yourself onto this assumption that Bible is 100% true, everything else follows from that. Their faith in their god actually derives from their preexisting faith in the Bible. And these people are not going to grant that anything is skewed or incorrect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ViaCrucis
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,138
51,515
Guam
✟4,910,135.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Modern translators look to use the oldest manuscripts,
And why are those manuscripts still around?

It's because they were never used.

People who knew their Bible would read them and LOL.

I've seen a 20 year-old Bible practically disintegrate with use.

Look at our Constitution.

Encased in glass ... almost 241 years old ... in good condition.

But look at their copies: holes in them, coffee stains, tears, wrinkles.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,890
Pacific Northwest
✟732,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
And why are those manuscripts still around?

It's because they were never used.

People who knew their Bible would read them and LOL.

Yep, Bob and Jane Christian walking around with their KJV in the 2nd century, it's what they did. That's how ancient writings work. Well done.

Right after church they'd take the kids to the park in Corinth, and then go on a Sunday drive to Thessalonika. In their car. They had cars back then too.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,652
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟104,175.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
And why are those manuscripts still around?

It's because they were never used.

Before the invention of the printing press, about the only place you would find a Bible was in a church or monastery. If you wanted a handwritten copy of the Bible today, it would be at least a years work for somebody, and it would cost a small fortune.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JD16
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,138
51,515
Guam
✟4,910,135.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Before the invention of the printing press, about the only place you would find a Bible was in a church or monastery. If you wanted a handwritten copy of the Bible today, it would be at least a years work for somebody, and it would cost a small fortune.
Sinaiticus was found in a trash can.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,890
Pacific Northwest
✟732,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Sinaiticus was found in a trash can.

"At the monastery Tischendorf saw some leaves of parchment in a waste-basket. He retrieved from the basket 129 leaves in an early Greek uncial majuscule hand, which he identified as coming from a manuscript of the Septuagint. According to his account, the monks indicated that they had already used a number of similar leaves to stoke their fires. To which Tischendorf responded that the leaves were too valuable to be burned. Whether the monks had actually burned any of the leaves is seriously disputed by the current occupants of the Monastery of Saint Catherine. Unfortunately, there is no way for us to know whether or not Tischendorf's assertion was accurate. He asked if he might keep the leaves he pulled out of the wastebasket, but the monks, having been made aware of their value and significance, permitted Tischendorf to take only 43 leaves. These leaves contained portions of 1 Chronicles, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, and Esther. Tischendorf later deposited them in the Leipzig University Library, where they remain. In 1846 Tischendorf published the content of the 43 leaves, naming them the Codex Frederico-Augustanus in honor of the his patron and sovereign, Frederick Augustus, the king of Saxony."

Constantin von Tischendorf Discovers and Acquires the Codex Sinaiticus: Controversial and Disputed (February 4, 1859) : HistoryofInformation.com

I suspect when Indiana Jones talks about his adventures, he doesn't talk about how he's terribly afraid of snakes.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JD16
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,058
16,810
Dallas
✟871,701.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Is it accurate or trustworthy? Yes it is, critics have laughed at the bible for its talking about imaginary peope like the hittites, untill they were found to be real people.

That is more of an urban legend than fact. Its seems to stem from the question as to whether the "Biblical Hittites" are the same people who we know as the Hittites.
Biblical Hittites - Wikipedia
also
Hittites - Wikipedia

Of course if we had never lost our ability to read Heiroglyphics, we could just have read the Kadesh inscriptions at Karnak.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TagliatelliMonster

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2016
4,292
3,373
44
Brugge
✟66,672.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
And the way any written matterial is read is to give it the benefit of the doubt untill it is shown to be unreliable.

Classic shift of the burden of proof.
A "just so" story is not accepted by default "until proven wrong". That's not how rational reasoning works.

The bible has been shown to be reliable in many, many areas

...and unreliable in many others.

so in those areas were there are questions, it should be presumed to be reliable untill proven otherwise.

That's like saying that because New York exists, we should assume that Spiderman is real until proven otherwise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TagliatelliMonster

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2016
4,292
3,373
44
Brugge
✟66,672.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
All you are doing is showing that your bias against Christianity is such that you are not prepared to accept evidence or arguments that are contrary to your biased view.

Irony alert.

No, obviously, what I actually said was that I'm not prepared to "just assume" things until there is sufficient evidence in support of it.

You treat everything in your life in the exact same way, except your particular religion of choice.

This is why you immediatly recognise how ridiculous the proposition is that we should assume Spiderman is real, because New York exists.

While you employ the exact same "logic" to justify your belief concerning the bible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0