Would you agree though that the church preceded the Bible, even if we were to disagree about which church that is?
Could you please show where in Scripture God explicitly revealed what books are the inspired books of the Bible, and those that were not?
IMO, biblical history can be divided into two periods, roughly following the division of Old and New Testaments: the Age of the Law and the Church Age.
The Church was a "Mystery" in the Old Test. and was not known until it was given by God to Paul, so then the Church was in existence before the Bible. The Church Age is the period of time from
Pentecost to the Rapture. It is called the Church Age because it covers the period in which the Church is on earth. It corresponds with the dispensation of Grace. Jesus has kept His promise, and His Church has now been growing for almost 2,000 years.
I understand why this is important to you as the Catholic Church claims to be a continuation of the original church. It does not admit to have begun any other time or place. But remember that the Bible predicts that there would be apostasy from the original church.
So YOU need to consider IMO is whether the Catholic church is the original church or an apostasy from it. To do this let us consider what the Catholic Church itself says about its authority and its organization.
The Faith of Our Fathers, James Cardinal Gibbons, 110th Edition, p. 73................
"We must, therefore, conclude that the Scriptures
alone cannot be a sufficient guide and rule of faith ... because they are not of themselves clear and intelligible even in matters of the highest importance, and because they do not contain all the truths necessary for salvation".
A Catechism for Adults, William Cogan, 1975 Edition, pp. 9,10..........................
"Do we get from the Bible alone all our knowledge and certainty about what God has told us? No, there is also Sacred Tradition ... Do you have to believe in Tradition? Yes, ... we are obliged to accept all the truths contained in the Bible and Tradition...".
The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, p. 82.................
"In early times, the Bible was read freely by the lay people ... No prohibitions were issued against the popular reading of the Bible. New dangers came in during the middle ages ... To meet these evils, the Councils of Toulouse (1229) and Tarragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible. Pius IV. required the bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read even Catholic versions of Scripture unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such reading was likely to prove beneficial".
So, the point here is that the Catholic church contradicts Bible teaching about authority:
(1) It denies that the Bible can be understood by the average person.
(2) It denies that the Bible is a complete revelation of God's will for man.
(3) It teaches that people must follow tradition as well as the Bible.
(4) It has at times forbidden average people from studying the Bible.
The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, p176.................
The Church "may be defined as 'the society of the faithful ... who are under one head in heaven, viz. Christ, one head on earth, viz. the Pope...'".
A Catechism for Adults, William Cogan, 1975 Edition, pp. 55,56.....................
"The Pope, who is the bishop of Rome and the Vicar of Christ ... is the visible head of the whole Catholic Church" -
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A Catechism for Adults, William Cogan, 1975 Edition, p. 56.
"Does Jesus require us to follow the Pope in matters of religion? Yes, because obedience and loyalty to the Pope are among the chief requirements of Our Lord's plan for unity".
Canon Law,"
Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. IX, p61);
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm (7/2011).
"At the end of the fifth century the Roman Church was completely organized".
So the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible regarding headship:
(1) It teaches that obedience to the Pope is required.
(2) It teaches that the Pope is also head of the church, and the church has two heads.
Remember also that the Catholic Church forbids priests to marry and commands people to abstain from meats at certain holy days. This directly fulfills the prediction of apostasy in 1 Timothy 4:1-3.
These points, and many others that could be examined, show that the Catholic Church is not the New Testament Church, but fulfills the Bible predictions of apostasy.
If the Catholic Church has different headship and follows different authority than did Jesus' original church, it cannot be Jesus' original church.
Because this apostasy was a gradual development, it is hard to name an exact date when the Catholic Church began to exist as a separate entity. However, since they claim the church was fully organized by the end of the fifth century AD, it is fair to conclude that the Catholic Church was fully formed as a separate church from the original church by the fifth century.
Now as for where in the Bible is a list of the books included in the Bible. I am pretty sure that everyone knows that is a trick question so as to allow you as a Catholic to tell all of us that it was the Catholic Church which did that.
However, the books of the Bible were always found in the mind of God as we see in 2 Tinothy 3:16.......
"ALL Scripture is given by the INSPIRATION of GOD.............".
What we have in the Bible is exactly what God always knew He would have produced.
It would be impossible to explain the origin of the Bible by any other means than to note that it claims to be a supernatural book guided by the Holy Spirit and supports its claim by the facts presented. Though human authors were used and the Bible has clear evidence of their human involvement in writing the Bible, they were so guided by the Holy Spirit that what they wrote was the truth as God wanted it to be said, and they were kept from the error of including anything that was extraneous or unnecessary.