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Beyond death

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Neenie

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I've been somewhat curious on what exactly happens to our soul when we die. Whether or not we go to be the lord instantly, or if our soul is unconscience until judgement day.

In 2nd Corinthians(5:8) it states that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" but then in thessalonians(4:16) it sates that when Christ returns "the dead in Christ shall rise first". I'm looking for interpretation of those vesrses.

I'm also leaning to believe that our souls go to the presence of the lord when we die. There are some NDE testimonies that I have found to be credible about what happens after death. One of them being Ian Mcormack who died from multiple stings of box jelly fish, and experienced both heaven and hell. http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/
 

prophecystudent

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I've been somewhat curious on what exactly happens to our soul when we die. Whether or not we go to be the lord instantly, or if our soul is unconscience until judgement day.

In 2nd Corinthians(5:8) it states that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord" but then in thessalonians(4:16) it sates that when Christ returns "the dead in Christ shall rise first". I'm looking for interpretation of those vesrses.

There are two different issues here. One concerns when we die. As Christ said to the thief as they both hung on the cross, "You will be with me today in paradise." Loose quote. That was the indication that at death our souls go to be with Christ.

Further, when Christ died and descended to hades and was resurrected, He took the keys to death and hell with him. He also took the souls of all those who had died previously (righteous people) whose souls were in "Abrahams bosom". They all went to heaven with Him. Those unrighteous dead are still in the place of torment. Read about Lazurus, the beggar, and Abraham's bososom. There was a great wide gulf or chasm between the two parts of the "underworld". One a place of comfort, called Abraham's bosom, the other a place of torment.

Now, on to the second part. When Christ returns, as stated in Thessalonians 4, that is the Rapture. Our physical bodies will be resurrected, glorified, and we will all have new bodies, like unto Christ's.

At death our souls go to be with Christ. At Christ's return for His church (the Rapture) our bodies are returned to us as glorified bodies.

Does this help?

Fred

I'm also leaning to believe that our souls go to the presence of the lord when we die. There are some NDE testimonies that I have found to be credible about what happens after death. One of them being Ian Mcormack who died from multiple stings of box jelly fish, and experienced both heaven and hell. http://www.aglimpseofeternity.org/

I have read a number of NDE stories as well. It seems there are two different places to which the person having the experience "go".

One is a nice place with lots of love, etc, the other is a place of "torment". I cannot make any other comments as I do not know the beliefs of any of those who claim to have had these experiences.

I can tell you, after thinking about it, that our daughter had at least one NDE as a result of a car accident. Her car was hit ead on by a drunk driver. She spent 3 1/2 weeks in intensive care. She apparently "passed over" at least twice.

She described is as a place of unbelievable comfort, love, warmth, etc. Her grandfather, who had died a couple of months earlier, met her during the experience and told her, "You cannot give up. You have to go back and fight. If you do not your grandmother would never survive the shock."

She told us the next visiting period about it. It gave her the strength to fight it out. She is not healthy with to boys in their early 20's.

I know her beliefs and she definitely fit into the"believer" category.

Fred
.
 
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sandman

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The idiom “immortality of the soul” is a subjective term whose definition can vary with, and within those individuals of either a philosophical or religious stance.
According to many religious beliefs, the soul is immortal and lives on after death to await the judgment of God; this in religious terms is called somatic death.
The definition from the Bible gives a very different explanation, thus making the soul mortal, not immortal. If you follow the scriptures and the Hebrew words used to define soul, its conclusion according to the Bible will show that there is no immortality to the soul but rather the immortality lies within spirit.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {Nepesh chai}

Soul is what gives the body life, our breath life.
The natural man the {five senses man} is comprised of body and soul.
Both men, as well as animals, have soul life.

Genesis 1

:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing
that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The words life are the words nepesh = soul

:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good

:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

the word creature is the word nepesh = soul

The word living is the word chai meaning moving soul or moving life. Nepesh chai is always used as living life or living soul.

Where is the soul?

As Leviticus 17:11 states “the life of the flesh is in the blood”...

The word lifein Leviticus 17:11 is the same word for soul {nepesh}



There is no immortality, or transmigration of the soul. Soul simply means alive people; that which gives life to the body. When one dies…….. ceases to exist………. takes his last breath……….. the soul itself being breath life, also ceases. Neither does soul give reference to a believer, as Acts states.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.

With the exception of Paul and Luke, the rest of the people on board this ship were unbelievers; so soul cannot be making reference to one who is a Christian

What are the ramifications of believing the lie that Satan set fourth in Genesis 3:4 “Ye shall not surely die”
We know that spiritual death was an instantaneous result of Adams sin. But because of original sin Adam conferred his rights {dominionship} {Genesis 1:26} over to the devil {Luke 4:5 & 6; John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4}. Because of that sin we now are subject to physical death.
The devils tactics haven’t changed, he is still subjecting us to the same tricks as in Genesis. To question the Word by omission, doubting the word by questioning, and changing the Word by doubting, and then, flat out contradicting the word by lying “ye shall not surely die” It’s the same lie today; stating that we don’t really die we just cross over …………

To promote the idea that humans do not die, but go on living after death, being judged to heaven or hell, obscures the light of the good news of Christ’s resurrection; which is the only hope of deliverance from death. It changes the Christian focus from the appearing of Jesus Christ, to the coming of ones own death.
If believers have gone on to be with God at their death, the importance of Jesus Christ resurrection is negated.
If Abraham, David and others were already in heaven then our enemy, death, had already been vanquished before Christ’s resurrection, and eternal life was available without Christ.

One of the consequences of believing that the soul lives on after the body dies plays right into the hands of those who promote the practice of communicating with the dead.
God’s word not only exposes this counterfeit as a satanic attempt to convince people that the dead are actually alive, but Scripture makes it clear that to those attempting to contact the dead; it’s a sin forbidden by God.

The Return

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


The Bible teaches that when one dies they are dead….asleep, until the return of Christ. Their spirit returns to God, the soul, which is breath life ceases, and the body goes into a state of decay …. back to dust. “

· 1 John 3:2& 3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

“When he shall appear” is future.
It doesn’t say when you die you will be like Him, or after you are judged. It says when He shall appear! Whenever that is, we will be like him, that is our hope.

* 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 54
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
These verses put 55-58 in the context where they belong.

55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56: The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57: But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58: Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Death is not swallowed up in victory until Christ comes. If Christians and Old Testament believers went immediately to heaven when thy die, then death, not the resurrection of the dead, would be the victory.

1 Thessalonians 5: 9 & 10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
I Thessalonians 4: 13 –18
13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. {God will by means of Jesus bring with him}
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent {proceed} them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words
 
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Neenie

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There are two different issues here. One concerns when we die. As Christ said to the thief as they both hung on the cross, "You will be with me today in paradise." Loose quote. That was the indication that at death our souls go to be with Christ.

Further, when Christ died and descended to hades and was resurrected, He took the keys to death and hell with him. He also took the souls of all those who had died previously (righteous people) whose souls were in "Abrahams bosom". They all went to heaven with Him. Those unrighteous dead are still in the place of torment. Read about Lazurus, the beggar, and Abraham's bososom. There was a great wide gulf or chasm between the two parts of the "underworld". One a place of comfort, called Abraham's bosom, the other a place of torment.

Now, on to the second part. When Christ returns, as stated in Thessalonians 4, that is the Rapture. Our physical bodies will be resurrected, glorified, and we will all have new bodies, like unto Christ's.

At death our souls go to be with Christ. At Christ's return for His church (the Rapture) our bodies are returned to us as glorified bodies.

Does this help?

Fred
Wow..that makes perfect sense to me, I had always overlooked that part when Christ says to the theif "You will be with me today in paradise". I think it is quite clear to me that we do go to be with the lord, at the time of death. I had always been confused about thessalonians verse, which seemed to have a different angle to the others. But it makes sense that it means on christs return, he gives us new resurrected bodies. Thanks for pointing that out, it's given me a better understanding of this.
I have read a number of NDE stories as well. It seems there are two different places to which the person having the experience "go".

One is a nice place with lots of love, etc, the other is a place of "torment". I cannot make any other comments as I do not know the beliefs of any of those who claim to have had these experiences.

I can tell you, after thinking about it, that our daughter had at least one NDE as a result of a car accident. Her car was hit ead on by a drunk driver. She spent 3 1/2 weeks in intensive care. She apparently "passed over" at least twice.

She described is as a place of unbelievable comfort, love, warmth, etc. Her grandfather, who had died a couple of months earlier, met her during the experience and told her, "You cannot give up. You have to go back and fight. If you do not your grandmother would never survive the shock."

She told us the next visiting period about it. It gave her the strength to fight it out. She is not healthy with to boys in their early 20's.

I know her beliefs and she definitely fit into the"believer" category.
I pray that God continues to heal your daughter of the health issues she is suffering from this car accident. That really is amazing what your daughter experienced, and how it has given her strength to keep fighting it through. It is comforting to read testimonies like this where God gives back life to stay with loved ones.

Thank you for your reply & God bless.
 
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Neenie

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sandman

Interesting read...and very in depth. There seems to be differing belief on this subject after reading your post, and some of the thread StevenL posted. I know very little theology and it's difficult for me to understand most of it. I guess I'll just wait and see what happens lol.

God Bless
 
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StevenL

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sandman

Interesting read...and very in depth. There seems to be differing belief on this subject after reading your post, and some of the thread StevenL posted. I know very little theology and it's difficult for me to understand most of it. I guess I'll just wait and see what happens lol.

God Bless
That's what all of us are really going to do Neenie.

God bless you.
 
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prophecystudent

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Wow..that makes perfect sense to me, I had always overlooked that part when Christ says to the theif "You will be with me today in paradise". I think it is quite clear to me that we do go to be with the lord, at the time of death. I had always been confused about thessalonians verse, which seemed to have a different angle to the others. But it makes sense that it means on christs return, he gives us new resurrected bodies. Thanks for pointing that out, it's given me a better understanding of this.

I pray that God continues to heal your daughter of the health issues she is suffering from this car accident. That really is amazing what your daughter experienced, and how it has given her strength to keep fighting it through. It is comforting to read testimonies like this where God gives back life to stay with loved ones.

Thank you for your reply & God bless.

In reading this I noticed that I had made a mistake (typo) regarding my daughter's current health. She is fine, just hurts some when the weather does an abrupt and major change. Her two sons are in their 20s. One is 20 the other 22.

Sorry for any confusion. I was in a hurry and didn't proof read my post before sending it.

Thanks for your best wishes and prayers for her.

Fred
 
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c1ners

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Prophesystudent: Am I your daughter? LOL! No, I don't think so, but I had a very similar experience.

It'll be 20 years ago this August 14th. I was taking my husband back to class when a car ran the median and hit us head on. My husband was killed almost instantly, and I was in the hospital for 3 1/2 weeks with pretty severe injuries myself. My baby was also with us. Her stay in the hospital was not as long, although I really can't remember.

Anyhow, I remember one day being very cold. My sister made the nurses bring me at least 7 warmed up blankets, and I was still freezing. Later that day I was unable to move. It was as if my body was filled with lead. That's when I saw it. It was my husband. My beautiful, wonderful husband. He was among many people. Most of whom I didn't know. But I did know my brother. There was also this white cat.

I watched as all these people embraced him. But he looked so totally confused. Like he didn't have a clue as to what was happening. I wanted so bad to go be with him, but yet I had to tell my family who was to look after my daughter. So I hung on until my parents came in. Of course they didn't understand.

By that time, my Danny was ready to leave, so I stopped trying to explain things to them, and just told them that I had to go. My face went blank, and my eyes rolled back into my head. I tried running after my Danny, but it was like a brick wall was in front of me. I couldn't through it, but I got to watch as danny took his first few steps onto that beautiful staircase. Then he disappeared. I don't know where he went, but I'm sure it wasn't hell. It was peaceful, and loving, and very bright and beautiful.

I woke up to my slapping my face and screaming. When they went to go check on my baby, she was in the same state I had been in earlier. They had to gently shake her in order to get her to come back.

I think it wonderfully that the both of us got to see the man me loved go to Heaven. No one will ever be able to change my mind. I saw it. I know what happened. My Danny IS in Heaven!
 
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sandman

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Abrahams bosom


The first thing that should grab our attention is the way verse 19 starts out “There was a certain rich man” Now take a look at verse 1 of chapter 16. “There was a certain rich man”…. Starting midway through chapter 14 and ending in chapter 16 verse 31 Jesus is teaching by way of parables. A parable is a comparison by sustained resemblance; it is an extended simile. The likeness or resemblance must be sought from the entire context.
As an aside- Two ancient Greek manuscripts The Bezae Caulabrigiensis, and the Koridethian-Caesarean text include the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen at the beginning of verse 19, which translate as “And He said also another parable”
This parable is addressed to the Pharisees {verse 14} The Pharisees, who believed in rewards and punishment immediately after death. Jesus told this parable to the Pharisees in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs. It was they, not Jesus who coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom” as one of several afterlife locations. Jesus uses the parable to condemn the Pharisees and catch them in their own erroneous belief.
His intention was not to contradict the entire Old Testament by teaching survival after death His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they still wouldn’t listen to him….. Just the opposite appears in Jesus teachings when we look at verses like in John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead .and Luke 14:14. And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
And Jesus could not have denied the abundance of scripture from the Old Testament like that of Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, &10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest
How prophetic it was, as evidenced by his own resurrection from the dead, many of them did not believe

paradise and heaven
Luke 23: 42 & 43And he {the malefactor} said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise
Verse 42 states “into thy kingdom” Christ’s kingdom was here upon earth and is being held in abeyance until it picks up again in Revelation. Just before Christ ascended his disciples asked Him Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
The words paradise and heaven are two distinctly different words,two different places, according to biblical definitions. Paradise always refers to someplace here on earth, not above the earth, or below. Paradise from the Septuagint is the word paradeisos and is translated Eden 16 times and garden 19 times. It is always used in the Bible as a place of beauty, and delight here upon earth. Paradise was lost in verse 3 of Genesis with the pronouncement of the curse, and its restoration will take place in after the last enemy {death} is destroyed, in Revelation, when there is a new heaven and a new earth.{Revelation 22: 1-5, 14, 17.}
Heaven is anyplace above the earth.
Now verse 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise
One little comma changes everything. Translators starting in the 11th century started adding punctuation; there was no punctuation in the originals. Here in this verse 43 they placed the comma after today, so the Bible would read that when you die {that day} you will be with me in paradise. The problem with this is; Jesus didn’t go to paradise that day. The Bible states He was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. According to Jewish law it took 72 hours before you were officially declared dead; and Jesus fulfilled the law.
The second thing: by placing the comma after the word today, you then have an accurate rendering of the truth. Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus was saying unto him that day, sometime in the future, he {the malefactor} would be with Him {Christ} in paradise. Now to us that might be a funny way of stating something but it was an idiom commonly used in the eastern culture for emphasis. References of this are scattered throughout the Bible some of these are used in Deuteronomy 6:6 – 7:11 – 8:1 – 9:3 – 10:13 – 11:2

Some other related records



Enoch


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
The word translated in verse 5 is rendered as “carried over” in Acts 7:16 ---“removed” in Galations 1:6 --- and “changed” in Hebrews 7:12.
God moved Enoch from one place to another so that he would not see death. No place in the scripture does it say that God gave Enoch everlasting life.
Two different concepts to “see death” from Heb 11:5. The first is the word see translated eidon in the Greek which is “to look at with actual perception with one’s eyes”. In the OT one discovers that Enoch has never seen anyone pass away. So this could be what it’s speaking of because Enoch pleased God, God moved him from one place to another so that he would not see his loved ones die.
Or

The other may be that God was protecting him from his evil contemporaries, because he walked and prophesied for God. So God translated him that he would not see death at that time.
Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
But Enoch did eventually die as is recorded in Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
These all {without exception} included Enoch.


Elijah

II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven
The assumption that Elijah went to a place of everlasting life is not stated anyplace in the scripture. The word heaven has several usages in the scripture. “The dew of heaven”, “the birds of heaven”, “the stars of heaven”. The word heaven biblically speaking is anyplace {the sky} above the earth. God supernaturally moved Elijah from one place to another. The other prophets according to this account understood this and wanted to go look for him. Elisha however knowing that God would have hidden Elijah did not want them to go.
God moved him from one place to another similar to what he did with Philip in Acts 8:39 & 40a And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus:



The transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-9

1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6: And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7: And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8: And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The key to understanding this is in the third verse with the word appeared. That word is translated optomai in the Greek, which means seeing objectively, or envisioning. The word blepö in the Greek is the word used when “one uses the eyes to look at”. Jesus clearly states in verse 9 tat this was a vision it was not seen blepö, but this phenomenon was seen in “the minds eye” The word states that Elijah is dead in Hebrews 11:13 and Joshua 1:2 declares that “Moses my servant is dead”
A vision {trance} is a spiritual phenomenon in which God causes something to appear to a person either in the minds eye or to the physical eye. Some examples are II Kings 6:17; Acts 10:9-20 II Corinthians 12: 1-4
Keep in mind that the word cannot contradict itself.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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