BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

Lazarus Short · Dec 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Jesus did everything in this world, before He died, not after His death.

IIRC, E.G. White the SDA prophetess, stated that Jesus ministers for us night and day in the Heavenly places...

mmksparbud · Dec 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Sure many Pharisees believed they were doing all that.

Lord forgive me for I have not loved you with my whole heart and I have not loved my neighbour as myself.

No, they didn't love the Lord, the believed in doing all the sacrifice and keeping all the Levitical and moral laws. Knowing and loving God or their neighbor didn't enter into it. That's the reason Jesus told the parable of the publican and the Pharisee.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Skidder · Dec 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Love your zeal Skidder, but you're just grandstanding now. All those things apply. The only reason everyone doesn't love Christ is cause everyone doesn't know him yet.

We preach and defend Christ Crucified, and only through this precious love story can we see the SIMPLICITY that is IN CHRIST. So if defending the simplicity that is IN CHRIST gives me the title of "grandstanding", than I accept that title with honor! Removing the blood from salvation is not preaching and defending Christ Crucified, but the very opposite. We are not of those who divide the Gospel of Christ: redemption from the redeemer, the blood from salvation, the sacrifice from the lamb, CHRIST from CRUCIFIED. There is no greater wisdom than the wisdom found IN CHRIST, a wisdom that can only be found through the "foolishness" of the message preached...

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, CHRIST the POWER OF GOD and the WISDOM OF GOD. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Notice how it says that IN CHRIST CRUCIFIED is CHRIST the POWER and WISDOM of GOD. How could this be?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

So how does this wisdom work? How does we attain the mind of Christ? By striving, good works and self-sacrifice? Or maybe all that is required is faith in His finished work?

So you're telling me the simple message of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified contains the mind of Christ?

First of all the natural man is “spiritually discerned”, unable to comprehend the foolishness of the message preached. And according to the verses listed above it looks like we need to take a little trip to the cross! You know that place that is foolishness to the carnal mindset. For the natural man desires nothing to do with this rendezvous. He hates even the mention of a trip to the cross, because at the cross IT IS FINISHED along with his position in the driver’s seat (I was crucified with Christ). For he only looks out for himself and the things of this world. The cross is offensive to the natural man because it condemns him to death. Could that be why scripture proclaims that the teaching of the CROSS is the POWER OF GOD?

I believe to understand this mystery we have to understand that we were CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST. The flesh opposes the reality of our position; along with our enemy. If we continue to carry around with us the affliction of that old tree, we walk in the power and wisdom of Christ. We were not crucified apart from Christ, but with Christ. The cross is freedom from our old self; a freedom UNTO LIFE by the same power that raised Christ from the dead! The spirit of God’s Son is manifested through a GRACE THAT IS SUFFICIENT!! And what grace is greater than the FREEDOM OF CALVARY!! So what’s left when the natural man falls defeated at the cross? Are we not left standing on the MERCY’S HILL? Redeemed by His blood and submerged in a PERFECT FORGIVENESS! Hands lifted to our Holy Father with a JOY UNSPEAKABLE and FULL OF GLORY!! For I can’t find a greater HOPE than what happened on that HILL, because I can’t find a greater POWER and WISDOM than JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!!

1 Corinthians 2:1-2
And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

Grace and Peace...

FineLinen · Dec 10, 2019

The 3 S's are at it again.

The author of this magnificent beware = Skidder

Shrewd & Saint Steve = HOPE

Dear Shrewd: You will never know the joy you and St. Steve are to my weary soul.

This is another quality post.

"If everybody does not love Jesus, it's only that everybody has not met him yet."

My precious wife lives with Mr. Trouble and only she could mount up with wings like an eagle to deal with the rascal.

Holland has just paid us a visit (Hello my brother Jord). And to Lazarus & Hillsage & Marty Monster & MkGal know this: there are indications that across this little globe of ours individuals are reaching out for higher ground. Yes, dear ones, we cry for Him!

mmksparbud · Dec 10, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
IIRC, E.G. White the SDA prophetess, stated that Jesus ministers for us night and day in the Heavenly places...

Are you serious??!! That is for us---not for Himself! He is now our High Priest as such He ministers His grace for our sins with His own blood.
Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Lazarus Short · Dec 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Are you serious??!! That is for us---not for Himself!

Um...I believe that is what I said.

mmksparbud · Dec 10, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Um...I believe that is what I said.

I was referring to the fact that Jesus did all His Father asked of Him while on this earth. He was sinless on earth before He died.

Skidder · Dec 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
The 3 S's are at it again.

The author of this magnificent beware = Skidder

Shrewd & Saint Steve = HOPE

Dear Shrewd: You will never know the joy you and St. Steve are to my weary soul.

This is another quality post.

"If everybody does not love Jesus, it's only that everybody has not met him yet."

My precious wife lives with Mr. Trouble and only she could mount up with wings like an eagle to deal with the rascal.

Holland has just paid us a visit (Hello my brother Jord). And to Lazarus & Hillsage & Marty Monster & MkGal know this: there are indications that across this little globe of ours individuals are reaching out for higher ground. Yes, dear ones, we cry for Him!

Something I wrote in another forum a few years ago, also addressing the false gospel of UR. You might do will to pay attention to it. Separating the body and blood from salvation (who is Christ) is nothing to be proud of...

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by HIS GRACE through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus

A growing heresy in these last days, and surely a division of the gospel, is the subtle deception that seeks to remove the payment from Christ. Proclaiming that those who are perishing already have redemption (the act of being saved from sin) outside of Christ; even though they reject Christ and want nothing to do with Him. The spirit behind this stronghold comes with a vicious tenacity, filled with deceit, looking to divide Christ from what he gave us on Calvary. This is a false grace that seeks to remove "the power of God" from the Grace of God. A division of the Gospel that proclaims the only thing missing from being born again is the “resurrection”. In this subtle deception they separate Jesus from what He gave on Calvary.

And what exactly did Jesus give us on Calvary? He gave Himself, His body and blood!! John chapter 6 is loaded with nuggets that refute the teaching that the body and blood are separate from Eternal Life (Jesus Christ).

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Jesus is referring to Himself given to the world at Calvary. God GAVE his Son for the life of the world!!

John 6:32
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Jesus is the bread, therefore He is the sacrifice that gives LIFE TO THE WORLD!! Because he gave his flesh the veil of the temple was torn open allowing anyone, if they so choose, to partake (believe) and receive LIFE.

John 6:47-51
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes a in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Here we see that it's IMPOSSIBLE to partake of the body and blood (crucified with Christ and forgiveness) without believing in Christ!! He is the sacrifice therefore He the PAYMENT for SIN!! When we believe In Him we partake of His body and blood, and at that moment we are crucified with Christ, receive forgiveness of sins, and are raised to LIFE!!

John 6:53-54
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

There’s an evil stronghold that longs to divide the Gospel in the name of eternal life. They will often cherry pick these verses proclaiming that eternal life is separate from the body and blood of Christ, but John chapter 6 proves they are only heaping sins upon themselves for dividing the Gospel. Unless a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ they have not partaken of the BREAD of LIFE and the BLOOD of FORGIVENESS therefore they have NO LIFE IN THEM!! Thus they have REJECTED the PAYMENT for their sins. And if they are so prideful as to die in their unbelief? They will surely DIE IN THEIR SINS!!

Why are so many on a quest to divide the gospel? Because the enemy is at work, and the offense of the cross makes it easy for the flesh to adapt to his plan. The cross is offending to Satan and the flesh, thus providing a strong temptation for the intellect of man. A temptation that will surely caress the flesh, until that prideful intellect has been laid to rest at the cross. Because ONLY at the cross do we find the POWER and WISDOM of Christ! The LIFE of the Son of God revealed with a MIGHTY POWER through the BODY and BLOOD of CHRIST!! This is our REDEEMER, our MESSIAH, our COUNSELOR, our HOPE, our FORGIVENESS, our LIFE…. THE PERFECT PASSOVER!!

Lazarus Short · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
Something I wrote in another forum a few years ago, also addressing the false gospel of UR. You might do will to pay attention to it. Separating the body and blood from salvation (who is Christ) is nothing to be proud of...

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by HIS GRACE through the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus

A growing heresy in these last days, and surely a division of the gospel, is the subtle deception that seeks to remove the payment from Christ. Proclaiming that those who are perishing already have redemption (the act of being saved from sin) outside of Christ; even though they reject Christ and want nothing to do with Him. The spirit behind this stronghold comes with a vicious tenacity, filled with deceit, looking to divide Christ from what he gave us on Calvary. This is a false grace that seeks to remove "the power of God" from the Grace of God. A division of the Gospel that proclaims the only thing missing from being born again is the “resurrection”. In this subtle deception they separate Jesus from what He gave on Calvary.

And what exactly did Jesus give us on Calvary? He gave Himself, His body and blood!! John chapter 6 is loaded with nuggets that refute the teaching that the body and blood are separate from Eternal Life (Jesus Christ).

John 6:27
Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the , which , because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Jesus is referring to Himself given to the world at Calvary. God GAVE his Son for the life of the world!!

John 6:32
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My . 33 For and gives .”

Jesus is the bread, therefore He is the sacrifice that gives LIFE TO THE WORLD!! Because he gave his flesh the veil of the temple was torn open allowing anyone, if they so choose, to partake (believe) and receive LIFE.

John 6:47-51
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who . . Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, . . , ; , .”

Here we see that it's IMPOSSIBLE to partake of the body and blood (crucified with Christ and forgiveness) without believing in Christ!! He is the sacrifice therefore He the PAYMENT for SIN!! When we believe In Him we partake of His body and blood, and at that moment we are crucified with Christ, receive forgiveness of sins, and are raised to LIFE!!

John 6:53-54
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, , . , and I will raise him up at the last day…

58 , not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. .”

There’s an evil stronghold that longs to divide the Gospel in the name of eternal life. They will often cherry pick these verses proclaiming that eternal life is separate from the body and blood of Christ, but John chapter 6 proves they are only heaping sins upon themselves for dividing the Gospel. Unless a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ they have not partaken of the BREAD of LIFE and the BLOOD of FORGIVENESS therefore they have NO LIFE IN THEM!! Thus they have REJECTED the PAYMENT for their sins. And if they are so prideful as to die in their unbelief? They will surely DIE IN THEIR SINS!!

Why are so many on a quest to divide the gospel? Because the enemy is at work, and the offense of the cross makes it easy for the flesh to adapt to his plan. The cross is offending to Satan and the flesh, thus providing a strong temptation for the intellect of man. A temptation that will surely caress the flesh, until that prideful intellect has been laid to rest at the cross. Because ONLY at the cross do we find the POWER and WISDOM of Christ! The LIFE of the Son of God revealed with a MIGHTY POWER through the BODY and BLOOD of CHRIST!! This is our REDEEMER, our MESSIAH, our COUNSELOR, our HOPE, our FORGIVENESS, our LIFE…. THE PERFECT PASSOVER!!

That's quite a strawman you've set up there, Skidder.

Forgive me if I don't express what you say correctly, but I gather that what you assert in your long post is that the wicked and/or unrepentant sinners have no life in them. But wait, there's more: after we die, none of us have life in us...'cause we're DEAD. It's the Resurrection that makes us all alive again, is it not, and does God not resurrect everyone, some to life and some to Judgment?

We UR believers do not argue that those going into Judgment get a free pass - far from it. We are saying that those who are tossed into the LoF are cleansed, refined and purified. I have had a growing sense of the nature of God as Fire. I wanted more than a sense, so I have been doing a word study on "fire" and related words in the Bible. I am almost done with it, and will be posting my findings here on the Christian Forums. What I do know at this point in my study is that God dwells in fire, He uses fire and His zeal to refine men and He depicts Himself as a Refiner, and sometimes as "Sope/Soap."

Some posters in this thread see the LoF as reducing the wicked to ashes and forever death, but I have not found much support for annihilation in the Bible.

Some posters in this thread see the LoF as Hell, burning the wicked forever...but I note that not even the KJV ID's the LoF as Hell. For that matter, I found Hell to be very much overblown in the Bible, translated from words that do not refer to the Hell of Dante, Milton and Baxter. Two of the four words rendered as "Hell" - "Hades" and "Tartarus" come to us fairly directly from pagan Greek mythology.

Do you not "divide the Gospel" when you propose that much of humanity goes into the fire, never to come out? The "Gospel" means "Good News" does it not? Your position makes it Bad News for most of humanity. It makes John the Baptist, who called Jesus "...the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world," a liar. It makes the angels who told the shepherds of "...good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people...peace, good will toward men." liars. I makes Jesus the Christ, Who gave a parable of Himself leaving the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep, a liar.

Skidder · Dec 10, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
That's quite a strawman you've set up there, Skidder.

Forgive me if I don't express what you say correctly, but I gather that what you assert in your long post is that the wicked and/or unrepentant sinners have no life in them. But wait, there's more: after we die, none of us have life in us...'cause we're DEAD. It's the Resurrection that makes us all alive again, is it not, and does God not resurrect everyone, some to life and some to Judgment?

We UR believers do not argue that those going into Judgment get a free pass - far from it. We are saying that those who are tossed into the LoF are cleansed, refined and purified. I have had a growing sense of the nature of God as Fire. I wanted more than a sense, so I have been doing a word study on "fire" and related words in the Bible. I am almost done with it, and will be posting my findings here on the Christian Forums. What I do know at this point in my study is that God dwells in fire, He uses fire and His zeal to refine men and He depicts Himself as a Refiner, and sometimes as "Sope/Soap."

Some posters in this thread see the LoF as reducing the wicked to ashes and forever death, but I have not found much support for annihilation in the Bible.

Some posters in this thread see the LoF as Hell, burning the wicked forever...but I note that not even the KJV ID's the LoF as Hell. For that matter, I found Hell to be very much overblown in the Bible, translated from words that do not refer to the Hell of Dante, Milton and Baxter. Two of the four words rendered as "Hell" - "Hades" and "Tartarus" come to us fairly directly from pagan Greek mythology.

Do you not "divide the Gospel" when you propose that much of humanity goes into the fire, never to come out? The "Gospel" means "Good News" does it not? Your position makes it Bad News for most of humanity. It makes John the Baptist, who called Jesus "...the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world," a liar. It makes the angels who told the shepherds of "...good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people...peace, good will toward men." liars. I makes Jesus the Christ, Who gave a parable of Himself leaving the 99 sheep to find the 1 lost sheep, a liar.

What part of IN CHRIST is such a mystery to you?
You are free to separate the blood from salvation, and that is your choice, but I'm also free to expose those who do. Only IN CHRIST do we have REDEMPTION through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! Not APART from HIM in anyway. HE IS REDEMPTION.

Ephesians 1:7
IN HIMwe have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are IN CHRIST JESUS, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
...

<SK>What part of IN CHRIST is such a mystery to you?
You are free to separate the blood from salvation, and that is your choice, but I'm also free to expose those who do. Only IN CHRIST do we have REDEMPTION through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! Not APART from HIM in anyway. HE IS REDEMPTION.
Ephesians 1:7
IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are IN CHRIST JESUS, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption<SK>

...

One of the UR "proof texts'" is

1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men are "in Adam" because all mankind are direct, physical descendants of Adam but all men are NOT "in Christ."
The verses you listed stated a condition, i.e. "in Christ" certain things follow. Each verse also has a converse.

Col 1:14 NOT in whom we have NOT redemption through His blood, [we have NOT] forgiveness of sins.
Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The converse is NOT "in Christ" no redemption.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The converse is "There IS now condemnation to them which are NOT in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but NOT after the Spirit."

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The converse is "if any man NOT be in Christ, he is NOT a new creature: old things are NOT passed away; behold, all things are NOT become new."

FineLinen · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
What part of IN CHRIST is such a mystery to you?

Dear Skidd: Thankyou for starting this wonderful thread.

Being IN/EN Christ Jesus is a glorious realization for those who by His love and grace are immersed into Him through the working of at-one-ment.

Yes, the especially of His grace, the "malista", are but the beginning of what ultimately transpires in the "pas" of His great purpose in His beloved Son.

Do you know that the entire universe of the heavens, earth & underworld will ultimately know what the malista now know IN/EN the Lord?

That IN/EN the Name of Jesus EVERY knee shall bow & every tongue confess, YOU are Lord.

mmksparbud · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
What part of IN CHRIST is such a mystery to you?
You are free to separate the blood from salvation, and that is your choice, but I'm also free to expose those who do. Only IN CHRIST do we have REDEMPTION through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! Not APART from HIM in anyway. HE IS REDEMPTION.

Ephesians 1:7
IN HIMwe have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are IN CHRIST JESUS, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

If the fire is a cleansing fire---Jesus need never have died for our sins---He could have just resurrected us all and walked us through the lake of fire and cleansed everybody that way. He need never have come to this earth and suffered all He did. It makes His whole coming and the cross and everything He went thorough---pointless.

FineLinen · Dec 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
If the fire is a cleansing fire---Jesus need never have died for our sins---He could have just resurrected us all and walked us through the lake of fire and cleansed everybody that way. He need never have come to this earth and suffered all He did. It males His whole coming and the cross and everything He went thorough---pointless.

Der Alte · Dec 10, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
. . .
Some posters in this thread see the LoF as Hell, burning the wicked forever...but I note that not even the KJV ID's the LoF as Hell. For that matter, I found Hell to be very much overblown in the Bible, translated from words that do not refer to the Hell of Dante, Milton and Baxter. Two of the four words rendered as "Hell" - "Hades" and "Tartarus" come to us fairly directly from pagan Greek mythology. . . .

Nonsense! The Greek word "tartarus" is recorded in the NT. How do you explain that?
And the word "Gehenna" is derived from Hebrew, "Ge Hinnom," NOT Greek paganism.
"Gehenna" occurs 23 times in the NT and it does NOT refer to the valley outside Jerusalem.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Skidder · Dec 10, 2019

Der Alter said:
<SK>What part of IN CHRIST is such a mystery to you?
You are free to separate the blood from salvation, and that is your choice, but I'm also free to expose those who do. Only IN CHRIST do we have REDEMPTION through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! Not APART from HIM in anyway. HE IS REDEMPTION.
Ephesians 1:7
IN HIM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Colossians 1:14
IN WHOM we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST JESUS,
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are IN CHRIST JESUS, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption<SK>
One of the UR "proof texts'" is

1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All men are "in Adam" because all mankind are direct, physical descendants of Adam but all men are NOT "in Christ."
The verses you listed stated a condition, i.e. "in Christ" certain things follow. Each verse also has a converse.

Col 1:14 NOT in whom we have NOT redemption through His blood, [we have NOT] forgiveness of sins.
Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The converse is NOT "in Christ" no redemption.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The converse is "There IS now condemnation to them which are NOT in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but NOT after the Spirit."

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
The converse is "if any man NOT be in Christ, he is NOT a new creature: old things are NOT passed away; behold, all things are NOT become new."

I agree with this, I don't have a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Only IN CHRIST is their redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Not outside of Christ. And the only way to be IN CHRIST is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. A person has not been washed from their sins in His blood if they are not IN CHRIST. And that is why we should NEVER separate the blood from salvation. There is no "pre-wash" cycle with the blood of Christ, a person has either been washed from their sins in His blood, or they will die in their sins. And how are they washed? BY FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ!!

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

You have to understand that Christ is the PAYMENT just as much as He is THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE. He is the payment because He is the sacrifice. He is the Lamb who was slain. The sacrifice (His body and blood) is not separate from THE CHRIST just as much as the RESURRECTION and THE LIFE are not separate from the Christ. So basically SALVATION from sin is only IN CHRIST!!

Hillsage · Dec 10, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Uttering the word 'universalism' in today's churches has all the appeal of shouting 'fraud' to Israeli schoolkids at Auschwitz.

I agree it is....sad, but true.

The 'strategic approach' apparently is now to lead-in via the lukewarm ecumenism of 'hopeful inclusivism'. As long as Christ's at the centre, why not?

I find it hard to not give an account for the faith that is in me. But it does seem to be a crack in the door.

It is undoubtedly pretty tough for 'the church' to admit they've missed it for '1500 years'....tough also meaning 'humbling' hmmm. Oh they have no problem saying they haven't believed in plenty of the early church's post 500 AD false doctrines for the last 500 years. But eternal hell just slipped through.....like a big elephant.

I suppose it would be like the dental profession admitting they thought putting mercury amalgam in peoples mouths all these years, was perfectly safe. All the while they're treating it's very presence in the office lab as the very 'toxic thing' it is.

FineLinen · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
I agree with this, I don't have a problem with that.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Dear Skidd: You then should have no problem with the God equation!

Adam1 = "many made sinners">>>>

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

Skidder · Dec 10, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Skidd: You then should have no problem with the God equation!

Adam1 = "many made sinners">>>>

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

No I don't. Why do you have such a problem with the meaning of IN CHRIST? Do you honestly think redemption is separate from person of Jesus Christ? Do you believe those who reject Christ are washed from their sins in His blood?

FineLinen · Dec 10, 2019

Skidder said:
No I don't.

Dear Skidd: You then believe the God equation is totally equal on each side?

many= many>>>some =some>>>all =all>>>polus = polus

"The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the 'final perfection' yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God." –Vladamir Gelesnoff-

BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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One 4 Him & Him 4 all

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