BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

Lazarus Short said:

After death, the resurrection, correct? The Spirit of Life reanimates a new body, thus making a living soul. Naturally, this new soul will have the mental capacity to choose. Why does this need a Bible verse?

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You need a verse, 2 or more would be better, because there is no verse or combination verses which state or imply what you just said. Heterodox heresy.

Lazarus Short said:

Did you miss the context? Starting with verse 8 of the same chapter, we're back with John on Patmos in the first century, not far in the future.

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No--this is the context:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is what John was shown.

Lazarus Short said:

After death, the resurrection, correct? The Spirit of Life reanimates a new body, thus making a living soul. Naturally, this new soul will have the mental capacity to choose. Why does this need a Bible verse?

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Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

NO---NO NEED TO CHOOSE. THE DECISION WILL HAVE BEEN MADE ALREADY AND YOU COME UP ACCORDING TO THAT DECISION.

Der Alter said:

You need a verse, 2 or more would be better, because there is no verse or combination verses which state or imply what you just said. Heterodox heresy.

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It is simply the way God made Adam. Why is that a problem with you?

mmksparbud said:

No--this is the context:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is what John was shown.

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Go back and check your post - Chaper 22 was the subject:

"Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." That is what you said, and what I responded to.

mmksparbud said:

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

NO---NO NEED TO CHOOSE. THE DECISION WILL HAVE BEEN MADE ALREADY AND YOU COME UP ACCORDING TO THAT DECISION.

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I checked that verse on Biblehub in an interlinear version...which has "Judgement" for the Greek word, not "damnation." Your KJV is biased and tweaked toward Hell and Damnation. It is not reliable as a final authority on these matters.

Lazarus Short said:

It is simply the way God made Adam. Why is that a problem with you?

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And when God made Adam it is recorded in scripture. So if you want to use Adam to support this "After death, the resurrection, correct? The Spirit of Life reanimates a new body, thus making a living soul. Naturally, this new soul will have the mental capacity to choose." Show us where it is recorded in scripture.

Lazarus Short said:

I checked that verse on Biblehub in an interlinear version...which has "Judgement" for the Greek word, not "damnation." Your KJV is biased and tweaked toward Hell and Damnation. It is not reliable as a final authority on these matters.

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Lazarus Short said:

Go back and check your post - Chaper 22 was the subject:

"Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." That is what you said, and what I responded to.

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YOU ARE NOT EVEN SEEING WHAT THE VERSES SAY!


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The wicked have been dead for a 1000 years---Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The saved have been resurrected unto eternal life with God for that 1000 years, and the wicked are left dead.

When they come up, are they repentant?? No! They want to take the city of God by force! God does what He does out of defense for the saved from a final assault by the wicked! Nothing here about repentance!

You want the word judgment instead of damnation? OK. They are resurrected unto their judgement. The saved have already had their judgement, it came with Jesus---eternal life.

And this is the judgement of the wicked.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

OK: Here is the context of Rev 22:
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Lazarus Short said:

I checked that verse on Biblehub in an interlinear version...which has "Judgement" for the Greek word, not "damnation." Your KJV is biased and tweaked toward Hell and Damnation. It is not reliable as a final authority on these matters.

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This is known as "cherry picking" find a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions and decide that it is correct with no, zero, none evidence.
Here is a pertinent part of the definition of krisis from BDAG. Blue highlights translators consulted. Scholars don't just pick any old meaning they choose.

Dear Saint Peter:

What is wrong with you?

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

FineLinen said:

Dear Saint Peter:

What is wrong with you?

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

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Here are the references for that gem. (thanks)

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, ...
6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

mmksparbud said:

No--this is the context:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is what John was shown.

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Here it is - ALL the nations consumed by fire - either as satan's armies pursuant to Rev 20:9 fire from heaven and/or any spares mopped up as 'unbelievers' in Rev 20:15. Agreed?

So where do the 'saved of the nations' (as you prefer it) in Rev 21:24-26 come from if ALL nations have been fired? How are any of the nations saved , since they are (by definition) unbelievers when the lightning strikes?

Or do yo still say they are turned to ashes by the fire in 20:9 then reconstituted for the 2nd death, which is actually an eternal living hell in the LoF under 20:15? Just a wilderness of torment far as the eye can see. How could anyone love such an evil deity?

Saint Steven said:

Here are the references for that gem. (thanks)

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, ...
6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

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Ain't universalism great. The scriptures just keep yielding up one pearl after another, and lighting our path on the correct usage of terms like death, judgment and punishment. The damnationists hang on stubbornly to their carnal interpretations, but what good is a brick to a drowning man? The spirit gives life!

Shrewd Manager said:

Here it is - ALL the nations consumed by fire - either as satan's armies pursuant to Rev 20:9 fire from heaven and/or any spares mopped up as 'unbelievers' in Rev 20:15. Agreed?

So where do the 'saved of the nations' (as you prefer it) in Rev 21:24-26 come from if ALL nations have been fired? How are any of the nations saved , since they are (by definition) unbelievers when the lightning strikes?

Or do yo still say they are turned to ashes by the fire in 20:9 then reconstituted for the 2nd death, which is actually an eternal living hell in the LoF under 20:15? Just a wilderness of torment far as the eye can see. How could anyone love such an evil deity?

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Read!!! The saved have been in heaven with Jesus during the 1000 years!! This is the resurrection of the wicked---which is from all over the nations of the earth. What is sooooo vague? Jesus returns, takes the saved with Him for the 1000 years in heaven---the wicked living were destroyed at His coming, the wicked dead stay dead till after the 1000 years. The wicked are raised for their judgment after the 1000 years---their judgment is the lake of fire, destroyed by God when they try to take the descending New Jerusalem by force. What is so evil about destroying wicked people who are determined to take by force what does not belong to them? They show no repentance, they are evil sinners bent on the destruction of the saved. The saved will be quite grateful for their deliverance and they very much do love The Lord.

Shrewd Manager said:

Ain't universalism great. The scriptures just keep yielding up one pearl after another, and lighting our path on the correct usage of terms like death, judgment and punishment. The damnationists hang on stubbornly to their carnal interpretations, but what good is a brick to a drowning man? The spirit gives life!

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Dear Shrewd: Ain't the Father of all fathers who has conceived such wonderful conclusions staggering in all possible words to express? His Life swallows up all thanatos and every outcome of it!

mmksparbud said:

The saved will be quite grateful for their deliverance and they very much do love The Lord.

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Dear Lady: The entire groaning creation will join the groaning redeemed with grateful sobs of Holy>>>>Holy>>>>Holy.

The whole of created life SHALL BE delivered

mmksparbud said:

Read!!! The saved have been in heaven with Jesus during the 1000 years!! This is the resurrection of the wicked---which is from all over the nations of the earth. What is sooooo vague? Jesus returns, takes the saved with Him for the 1000 years in heaven---the wicked living were destroyed at His coming, the wicked dead stay dead till after the 1000 years. The wicked are raised for their judgment after the 1000 years---their judgment is the lake of fire, destroyed by God when they try to take the descending New Jerusalem by force. What is so evil about destroying wicked people who are determined to take by force what does not belong to them? They show no repentance, they are evil sinners bent on the destruction of the saved. The saved will be quite grateful for their deliverance and they very much do love The Lord.

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Thanks for the commentary, but you're still yet to answer the question. The NATIONS are consumed by fire. Then later (the saved of) the NATIONS reappear. How did they get saved after getting cooked? Were they on the backburner?

FineLinen said:

Dear Saint Peter:

What is wrong with you?

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

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Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

.

FineLinen said:

Dear Shrewd: Ain't the Father of all fathers who has conceived such wonderful conclusions staggering in all possible words to express? His Life swallows up all thanatos and every outcome of it!

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Dear F.L. we have the honour of worshipping He who is above all, and yet now we see Him only as through a glass, darkly.

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. (Mal 3:2)

FineLinen said:

Dear Lady: The entire groaning creation will join the groaning redeemed with grateful sobs of Holy>>>>Holy>>>>Holy.

The whole of created life SHALL BE delivered

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And it will be sublime.