Better to be cold than a luke-warm Christian?

JohnClay · Nov 4, 2015

My sisters' church teaches that Revelation 3:16 ("So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth") means that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than "cold" people (non-believers).
Though as a teenager I believed in young-earth creationism I don't think I was a proper believer.
Anyway their belief makes me want to remain a non-believer because if I believed I could risk becoming lukewarm and get a greater punishment. BTW I think it isn't fair for luke-warm Christians to receive a greater punishment.

paul1149 · Nov 4, 2015

JohnClay said:
Anyway their belief makes me want to remain a non-believer because if I believed I could risk becoming lukewarm and get a greater punishment

I think you're confusing belief with discipleship. Do you think that you can turn belief on and off like a spigot? Is your heart so easily changed?

The warning in Rev 3 is couched in an invitation to intimate fellowship. Those who respond will dine with the very King. Those who don't will be spewed out. Nominal Christians create stumbling blocks that keep people who need Christ away. People see them living like the world and conclude it's not real. Why would the King put up with that? Like any husband, He wants a bride that loves Him passionately. Jesus wants His church set apart and pure.

it's not easy to burn for God, and that's why the passage ends with an exhortation to overcome. But I don't see any permanent judgment in this passage - necessarily. Those who find themselves outside the King's presence still have the opportunity to repent and "buy gold refined by fire", and it clearly is the Lord's stated desire that they do so.

These matters of the heart go far deeper than how one might interpret the creation account.

TheyCallMeDave · Nov 4, 2015

JohnClay said:
My sisters' church teaches that Revelation 3:16 ("So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth") means that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than "cold" people (non-believers).
Though as a teenager I believed in young-earth creationism I don't think I was a proper believer.
Anyway their belief makes me want to remain a non-believer because if I believed I could risk becoming lukewarm and get a greater punishment. BTW I think it isn't fair for luke-warm Christians to receive a greater punishment.

Why not become a faithful , loyal, CHrist loving Believer evidenced by a changed life, than not become one at all ? A true Believer that has gotton all of their many accumulated sins totally forgiven and has (present tense) heaven .... will not want to hang onto the worlds methods and philosophy for living --- there must be a marked change in the persons life. After everyone dies physically to this brief earthly life, they will either be glad they are a Christian or deeply wish they were. To get a taste of GOds glory in eternity then be taken away from that forever, is a very horrendous action no one will want to happen. Secure heaven now and become saved of your sins. Then dedicate your life to Christ and serve him faithfully . You will find joy unspeakable. Do u know how to recieve Jesus ? Its very simple to do, but requires personal surrender afterward so you live for him .

JohnClay · Nov 5, 2015

paul1149 said:
I think you're confusing belief with discipleship. Do you think that you can turn belief on and off like a spigot? Is your heart so easily changed?

I agree. Even if I wanted to believe I can't just turn belief on. Though my relatives want me to believe again.

The warning in Rev 3 is couched in an invitation to intimate fellowship. Those who respond will dine with the very King. Those who don't will be spewed out. Nominal Christians create stumbling blocks that keep people who need Christ away. People see them living like the world and conclude it's not real. Why would the King put up with that? Like any husband, He wants a bride that loves Him passionately. Jesus wants His church set apart and pure.

I thought a luke-warm bride would be better than a cold one.

it's not easy to burn for God, and that's why the passage ends with an exhortation to overcome. But I don't see any permanent judgment in this passage - necessarily.

My sisters' pastor think a greater punishment in the lake of fire is involved.

Those who find themselves outside the King's presence still have the opportunity to repent and "buy gold refined by fire", and it clearly is the Lord's stated desire that they do so.

These matters of the heart go far deeper than how one might interpret the creation account.

Even though I was a creationist I said that I don't think I was a proper believer.

JohnClay · Nov 5, 2015

TheyCallMeDave said:
Why not become a faithful , loyal, CHrist loving Believer evidenced by a changed life, than not become one at all ? A true Believer that has gotton all of their many accumulated sins totally forgiven and has (present tense) heaven .... will not want to hang onto the worlds methods and philosophy for living --- there must be a marked change in the persons life. After everyone dies physically to this brief earthly life, they will either be glad they are a Christian or deeply wish they were. To get a taste of GOds glory in eternity then be taken away from that forever, is a very horrendous action no one will want to happen. Secure heaven now and become saved of your sins. Then dedicate your life to Christ and serve him faithfully . You will find joy unspeakable. Do u know how to recieve Jesus ? Its very simple to do, but requires personal surrender afterward so you live for him .

I think there is a good chance that I would end up being a luke-warm Christian rather than be on-fire for my whole life. Perhaps an analogy would be gambling. If I gamble I can gain a lot but there is also a chance I could lose something.

paul1149 · Nov 5, 2015

JohnClay said:
I thought a luke-warm bride would be better than a cold one.

I guess that depends on how lukewarm she is.

Steven Wood · Nov 5, 2015

JohnClay said:
I think there is a good chance that I would end up being a luke-warm Christian rather than be on-fire for my whole life. Perhaps an analogy would be gambling. If I gamble I can gain a lot but there is also a chance I could lose something.

The way I take "Luke-warm" would be to read Matt 6:22-24.and also add verse 17 to Rev 3:16. 22"The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.23"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness 24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. But also more extensively than wealth, yourself. If something needs to be done or not done for the Lord and you do the opposite because you didn't feel like it or it made you the "bad guy". I'm really not sure how believing in a you earth plays into this. I believe in a young earth myself. I also think lukewarm a Christian doesn't think about how many souls may go to hell because either they don't feel like sharing the word of God or they may be afraid of being looked down on or persecuted. This is where a punishment may come in. I think of it like this. If you were in charge of babysitting your little brother and he wandered out and got hurt because your friends were picking on you for babysitting so you weren't paying attention or even worse deliberately didn't care, would your father punish you when he got home? would you deserve it? You're responsible for your brother no matter what others say and should care about what happens. The things you get and the things you do while you're here, alive no matter how much fun they are are really fleeting, they're momentary and you only get a minute of fun from them. Nothing from this world lasts and everything physical goes away quick then you look for something else to make you happy again. Mark 8:36: For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:37: Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

JohnClay · Nov 6, 2015

paul1149 said:
I guess that depends on how lukewarm she is.

I thought a luke-warm bride is ALWAYS better than a cold one assuming luke-warm is always warmer than a cold one.

JohnClay · Nov 6, 2015

Steven Wood said:
The way I take "Luke-warm" would be to read Matt 6:22-24.and also add verse 17 to Rev 3:16. 22"The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.23"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness 24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth. But also more extensively than wealth, yourself. If something needs to be done or not done for the Lord and you do the opposite because you didn't feel like it or it made you the "bad guy". I'm really not sure how believing in a you earth plays into this. I believe in a young earth myself. I also think lukewarm a Christian doesn't think about how many souls may go to hell because either they don't feel like sharing the word of God or they may be afraid of being looked down on or persecuted. This is where a punishment may come in. I think of it like this. If you were in charge of babysitting your little brother and he wandered out and got hurt because your friends were picking on you for babysitting so you weren't paying attention or even worse deliberately didn't care, would your father punish you when he got home? would you deserve it? You're responsible for your brother no matter what others say and should care about what happens. The things you get and the things you do while you're here, alive no matter how much fun they are are really fleeting, they're momentary and you only get a minute of fun from them. Nothing from this world lasts and everything physical goes away quick then you look for something else to make you happy again. Mark 8:36: For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:37: Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Being a luke-warm Christian would be a lot worse than a hot one but I don't understand why they would be worse than a non-believer. I think Matthew 6:22-24 etc is saying that a non-hot person is just as bad as a cold person but I don't think it says that they are WORSE than a cold person.

Steven Wood · Nov 6, 2015

JohnClay said:
Being a luke-warm Christian would be a lot worse than a hot one but I don't understand why they would be worse than a non-believer. I think Matthew 6:22-24 etc is saying that a non-hot person is just as bad as a cold person but I don't think it says that they are WORSE than a cold person.

Well A luke warm person is a fair weather friend. They're around when they need something then gone again. When everything's good the Lukewarm Christian can't be bothered seeking or following JESUS, denying themselves, and helping others. They're serving another god, the god of self,wealth,satan but yet they say they're Christian. When things go bad and they get desperate they run to Christ and are quick to pray and try to act pious. This a lot worse than someone who decides to say I'm not going to turn to Christ for anything, at least they don't put on a show and use God only when they need something.

Steven Wood · Nov 6, 2015

But in the case of connecting Matt and rev I was just connecting serving 2 gods and being lukewarm

paul1149 · Nov 6, 2015

JohnClay said:
I thought a luke-warm bride is ALWAYS better than a cold one assuming luke-warm is always warmer than a cold one.

It doesn't always work that way. As I had said, that verse isn't alone, it's couched in others that make clear that the Lord wants passionate relationship. He wants intimacy. He tells them how to proceed in order to restore and rekindle the relationship. But at some point, even in human relationships, lukewarmness is unacceptable. It gets in the way. It's cloudy and undecipherable and holds everyone back. You can't do anything with it. And indeed, at some point it's better for the parties to separate and figure out just how important the relationship is to them.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are we judging the Bible? Or the Lord? Or the idea that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than the unsaved? Those in Christ will not be judged with eternal punishment. Whether these spewed out are still in Christ is another matter.

JohnClay · Nov 7, 2015

Steven Wood said:
Well A luke warm person is a fair weather friend. They're around when they need something then gone again. When everything's good the Lukewarm Christian can't be bothered seeking or following JESUS, denying themselves, and helping others. They're serving another god, the god of self,wealth,satan but yet they say they're Christian. When things go bad and they get desperate they run to Christ and are quick to pray and try to act pious. This a lot worse than someone who decides to say I'm not going to turn to Christ for anything, at least they don't put on a show and use God only when they need something.

I think I understand what you're saying. Since I might be like that luke-warm person at times then I think it would be better to not be a Christian which is apparently better than a luke-warm Christian.

JohnClay · Nov 7, 2015

paul1149 said:
It doesn't always work that way. As I had said, that verse isn't alone, it's couched in others that make clear that the Lord wants passionate relationship. He wants intimacy. He tells them how to proceed in order to restore and rekindle the relationship. But at some point, even in human relationships, lukewarmness is unacceptable.

So what would you do if a friend, relative or spouse was luke-warm in an unacceptable way? I don't see why it would be more unacceptable than if they were an enemy.

It gets in the way. It's cloudy and undecipherable and holds everyone back. You can't do anything with it. And indeed, at some point it's better for the parties to separate and figure out just how important the relationship is to them.

I think in Matthew 19 Jesus said that no-one should get a divorce unless there is cheating and even then they can't marry someone else. I don't see a big problem with a marriage being luke-warm. I think it's just in more modern times that people expect the honeymoon phase to keep on lasting forever.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. Are we judging the Bible? Or the Lord? Or the idea that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than the unsaved?

Yeah I have a problem with that and I also don't think the Revelation verse means a bigger punishment - it simply means being spat out.

Those in Christ will not be judged with eternal punishment. Whether these spewed out are still in Christ is another matter.

I guess being spewed out implies they are punished but I think that maybe the punishment of being spewed out is less than for cold people.

paul1149 · Nov 7, 2015

Good questions. The first thing to do is take a step backward and get better perspective. There are many difficult passages in the Bible. This is one of the least of them. I have learned that one must take difficult passages in context - the immediate context of the passage and the greater context of the whole counsel of God.

The first thing we notice about this passage is in the intro. Jesus introduces Himself as the "Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation". Each letter has a unique introduction. There is reason for this. It gives clues as to what He is going to say to the church in question and why He is going to say it. Here Jesus presents Himself as the one who is the quintessential reflection of God's character and majesty. His criticism of the Laodiceans should be seen in that light. Their lukewarmness was no small thing. It apparently was being officially countenanced and it was creating a stumbling block both to sincere persons in the church and to those on the outside who desperately needed salvation.

What would you do if a family member's behavior was this bad? Maybe you'd tolerate it for a time hoping for the best, but at some point you would tell him he needed to either consider his ways or find another place to live. I have done exactly that, and don't regret it. It doesn't mean you don't love them or want the best for them. Quite the contrary, you love them enough that you are not willing to give cover to them destroying themselves. Sometimes love has to be tough.

So when you bring up the divorce issue, which is a good parallel, the principle is the same. Let's give the Lord a little credit. Lukewarmness here is not some superficial thing. It is touching on faithfulness to the marital union. To think otherwise would be to violate a vast body of scripture to the contrary concerning the Lord's character.

It also doesn't mean the Laodiceans can't repent and come back. The passage specifically exhorts them to repent. Though it doesn't deal with the issue of what might happen after they are spewed out, I can say that such repentance is possible, but there is always a cost to disobedience. You really don't want to go there. And if you do, and come back, you will have learned never to do so again.

If I may say so, the point is this. You seem to be a person of conscience who doesn't want to make a commitment you would not be able to keep. That is admirable. But you need to consider what hangs in the balance here. On the other side, you are being offered a pearl of great price, the unique life of God, purchased so dearly. None of us is adequate for this. None. If you say Yes to God, it implies complete trust that He will save you, not yourself. You must come with the exact notion that you cannot do it on your own. Anyone who comes with a different belief is in for a major comeuppance.

And anyone who doesn't come because he knows he is not adequate is skirting the main point. It ultimately boils down to faith that "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus" (php1; cf Heb 11.6), and to a willingness to submit to His authority. If you sense the grace of salvation calling you, I counsel you to respond to it, just as you are, trusting that He is able to make you an overcomer ("out of weakness were made strong" -Heb 11). This is the kind of decision the Loadiceans had to make. In the end there will be no excuses for not coming. He not only is our forerunner, He offers to come to us, dine with us, become our strength, and always lead us in triumphal procession.

dysert · Nov 7, 2015

JohnClay said:
My sisters' church teaches that Revelation 3:16 ("So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth") means that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than "cold" people (non-believers).
Though as a teenager I believed in young-earth creationism I don't think I was a proper believer.
Anyway their belief makes me want to remain a non-believer because if I believed I could risk becoming lukewarm and get a greater punishment. BTW I think it isn't fair for luke-warm Christians to receive a greater punishment.

This verse is too often misapplied. Geographically, Laodicea did not have a water supply of its own. It was between Collosae, which had numerous hot springs, and Hierapolis, which had cold spring water. But since Laodicea had no water it had to get water from those other two cities. Unfortunately, by the time the water traveled through the aqueducts to get to Laodicea it was lukewarm -- no matter if it started in Collosae or Hierapolis. The point is that hot water is good for some things; cold water is good for some things; but lukewarm water is just blah. So this message isn't talking about being saved or not; it's about being useful or not. Jesus wants us to be useful (i.e., like cold or hot water) and not blah.

Steven Wood · Nov 7, 2015

JohnClay said:
I think I understand what you're saying. Since I might be like that luke-warm person at times then I think it would be better to not be a Christian which is apparently better than a luke-warm Christian.

Jesus told the city of Capernaum that Sodom is going to be better off than it is going to be on the day of judgement. Think of that, the city that's known by everyone for being destroyed for how wicked it was is going to be better off than a city which is exalted to heaven. Well Christ went to Capernaum and performed miracles but they still "goofed" around, rejected him, didn't make up their minds. Sodom didn't see the miracles of JESUS therefore didn't have the choice luxury that Capernaum had. Sodom was cold, Capernaum was lukewarm. Nothing will hurt you more than to know someone is using you. That they only want something to do with you because you do something for them. God is the same way. He has already given you everything, EVERYTHING all you need to do is have to do is do what he asks and have the faith and trust me once that faith is proven you'll be SHOCKED. Now I don't know if you're a parent or not but think of it in the terms of a parent and having 3 children and you have a big business that works on helping people. One child is dedicated to you and a very giving person. He is thankful for everything he has and isn't selfish with everything. Everytime you turn around he's doing something to make you proud, he wants to follow your example. Another child has nothing to do with you or your business, he hates the world and people, dead set on doing everything himself, and working for what he has. He's stingy with everything and quick to tell everyone that it was through him that he has what he does, he doesn't ask you for anything and you never hear from him. You are sad and hurt but he is his own person. The last child says he works for you but he's never there unless he needs something. No matter what you give him he loses it and spends it or it gets stolen from him by the people he decides to hang around. He's quick to tell the people that work for you that he does too but around his friends he calls you names and ignores everyone who works for you not to mention refuses to help anyone. This child continues to get into trouble until one day he finds in jail, he's rejected you over and over even though you've given him so many chances. You love that child just the same as the other and it hurts you so badly that you've given him everything and he spits in your face, only using you when he squanders everything and then runs back to you for more and then he's gone again once more ignoring you because he has what he wants and doesn't need you for a minute. I don't pretend to know what our Lord meant when he made us or his creation but I know you shouldn't be lukewarm in anything especially any relationship. If you're going to do something DO IT. God deserves. that and much much more. As for it being easier to be cold sometimes. I used to think that to but I gotta tell you, I've had my faith in God proven. It started just like the parable of the mustard seed little, almost none at all. Now I have nothing but faith in the Lord with no faith in anything else and I'll be completely honest, It's impossible for me to be cold, lukewarm or any other way. I could not live with faith in my job or happiness in this world or the people or things in it or anything other than JESUS. Nothing other than God is certain and everything else lies, fails, and falls away. Sorry for the length of this post.

JohnClay · Nov 7, 2015

dysert said:
This verse is too often misapplied. Geographically, Laodicea did not have a water supply of its own. It was between Collosae, which had numerous hot springs, and Hierapolis, which had cold spring water. But since Laodicea had no water it had to get water from those other two cities. Unfortunately, by the time the water traveled through the aqueducts to get to Laodicea it was lukewarm -- no matter if it started in Collosae or Hierapolis. The point is that hot water is good for some things; cold water is good for some things; but lukewarm water is just blah. So this message isn't talking about being saved or not; it's about being useful or not. Jesus wants us to be useful (i.e., like cold or hot water) and not blah.

I thought "cold" is meant to be bad... though in the case of water it is nice and refreshing.

JohnClay · Nov 7, 2015

Steven Wood said:
Jesus told the city of Capernaum that Sodom is going to be better off than it is going to be on the day of judgement. Think of that, the city that's known by everyone for being destroyed for how wicked it was is going to be better off than a city which is exalted to heaven. Well Christ went to Capernaum and performed miracles but they still "goofed" around, rejected him, didn't make up their minds. Sodom didn't see the miracles of JESUS therefore didn't have the choice luxury that Capernaum had. Sodom was cold, Capernaum was lukewarm. Nothing will hurt you more than to know someone is using you. That they only want something to do with you because you do something for them. God is the same way. He has already given you everything, EVERYTHING all you need to do is have to do is do what he asks and have the faith and trust me once that faith is proven you'll be SHOCKED. Now I don't know if you're a parent or not but think of it in the terms of a parent and having 3 children and you have a big business that works on helping people. One child is dedicated to you and a very giving person. He is thankful for everything he has and isn't selfish with everything. Everytime you turn around he's doing something to make you proud, he wants to follow your example. Another child has nothing to do with you or your business, he hates the world and people, dead set on doing everything himself, and working for what he has. He's stingy with everything and quick to tell everyone that it was through him that he has what he does, he doesn't ask you for anything and you never hear from him. You are sad and hurt but he is his own person. The last child says he works for you but he's never there unless he needs something. No matter what you give him he loses it and spends it or it gets stolen from him by the people he decides to hang around. He's quick to tell the people that work for you that he does too but around his friends he calls you names and ignores everyone who works for you not to mention refuses to help anyone. This child continues to get into trouble until one day he finds in jail, he's rejected you over and over even though you've given him so many chances. You love that child just the same as the other and it hurts you so badly that you've given him everything and he spits in your face, only using you when he squanders everything and then runs back to you for more and then he's gone again once more ignoring you because he has what he wants and doesn't need you for a minute.

I don't think that part about Capernaum rejecting Jesus would be called luke-warm. That would involve being cold. Luke-warm would involve half-hearted acceptance. Also for the child, I don't think spitting in your face or calling you names is being luke-warm. I think being an acquaintance is what luke-warm is about.

I don't pretend to know what our Lord meant when he made us or his creation but I know you shouldn't be lukewarm in anything especially any relationship.

So do you mean you must be super-enthusiastic or cold in all relationships? What if you were a beautiful young girl and you had a creepy uncle that liked you and wanted to be around you all the time? Could you just be luke-warm or would you have to choose between being hot or cold?

If you're going to do something DO IT. God deserves that and much much more. As for it being easier to be cold sometimes. I used to think that to but I gotta tell you, I've had my faith in God proven. It started just like the parable of the mustard seed little, almost none at all. Now I have nothing but faith in the Lord with no faith in anything else and I'll be completely honest, It's impossible for me to be cold, lukewarm or any other way. I could not live with faith in my job or happiness in this world or the people or things in it or anything other than JESUS. Nothing other than God is certain and everything else lies, fails, and falls away. Sorry for the length of this post.

TheJust · Nov 8, 2015

JohnClay said:
My sisters' church teaches that Revelation 3:16 ("So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth") means that lukewarm Christians will receive a greater punishment than "cold" people (non-believers).
Though as a teenager I believed in young-earth creationism I don't think I was a proper believer.
Anyway their belief makes me want to remain a non-believer because if I believed I could risk becoming lukewarm and get a greater punishment. BTW I think it isn't fair for luke-warm Christians to receive a greater punishment.

Revelation 3:16 Is basically saying; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:18

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