Bernie Sanders Train Rolls Through Nevada

Hammster

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Once again, socialism is the societal model presented in Acts 2 and 4.
No, it’s not. Socialism is government run. What the Christians did was take care of their own. So if you want to sell all that you have (which you don’t) and give to those who you think are in need (which you won’t), then go ahead and do so.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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No, it’s not. Socialism is government run.
Any system we have is run by the government - capitalism/free market as well. But the biblical model for a society is a socialist one.

What the Christians did was take care of their own.
That's a great model for Americans to follow. We should take care of our own. The Bible talks about taking care of "the least of these". Do you think Jesus means only "the least of these" Christians, but if they're not Christians forget about them?

So if you want to sell all that you have (which you don’t) and give to those who you think are in need (which you won’t), then go ahead and do so.
It doesn't work with just one person doing it - the group needs to do it for it to work. I believe we can do as much of this model as possible with everyone giving up some of what they have so that others who lack can also have.

Why are you against helping the less fortunate in our society? Don't you believe this is something we should be doing as individuals AND as a society? Doesn't it benefit our society to help those in need in our society?
 
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Hammster

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But the biblical model for a society is a socialist one.
No no no no no. I don’t know why you continue this untruth. Private property ownership, and the ability to do with it as one pleases is the biblical model. It’s not one in authority and taking from one group to give to another.
 
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Hammster

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That's a great model for Americans to follow. We should take care of our own. The Bible talks about taking care of "the least of these". Do you think Jesus means only "the least of these" Christians, but if they're not Christians forget about them?
It is a great model. That’s not socialism, though. Especially not Bernie’s view of socialism.
 
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Hammster

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Why are you against helping the less fortunate in our society? Don't you believe this is something we should be doing as individuals AND as a society? Doesn't it benefit our society to help those in need in our society?
I’m not against it. We do help those in need as we can. Paying off school loans, or free education is not helping those in need.
 
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Yekcidmij

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No no no no no. I don’t know why you continue this untruth. Private property ownership, and the ability to do with it as one pleases is the biblical model. It’s not one in authority and taking from one group to give to another.

Ha, don't quote me on this one, but I believe it says, "you shall not steal" and "you shall not covet" in a few places.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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No no no no no. I don’t know why you continue this untruth. Private property ownership, and the ability to do with it as one pleases is the biblical model. It’s not one in authority and taking from one group to give to another.
In Acts 2:44 it says "All the believers were together and had everything in common."
How do you understand "had everything in common" to be "had individual ownership of their respective property"???

In Acts 4:32 it says "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was thei own, but they shared everything they had."
How do you interpret "No one claimed that any of their possessions were their own" to mean "Everyone claimed their own possessions as individually their own private property"???
 
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ArmenianJohn

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It is a great model. That’s not socialism, though. Especially not Bernie’s view of socialism.
Yes, it is a great model. It is socialism, it is socialist. Not Bernie's view of socialism, I agree - Bernie is much, much more conservative; he is much less socialist than what is in the Bible. Bernie doesn't advocate pooling ALL our possessions.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I’m not against it. We do help those in need as we can. Paying off school loans, or free education is not helping those in need.
You're against it when it comes to healthcare and education though. We don't help all those in need as we can. There are thousands who do not get the help they need. Helping with education is not only helping those in need but also helping society in general. But for sure universal healthcare can be achieved easily and at less cost than our current system but most of all it is the Christian thing to help those who need it simply because we are able to.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Ha, don't quote me on this one, but I believe it says, "you shall not steal" and "you shall not covet" in a few places.
Yes, you're correct, it does. You bring up a good point that universal health care helps us abide by the commandments so it's even more Biblical that way.Great thing about a socialist healthcare system is it doesn't leave anyone coveting or stealing anything like they do with private insurance (insurance fraud, or people jealous of those with "better coverage").

The Bible also says "thou shalt not commit adultery" and "thou shalt not lie" and "thou shalt have no gods before Me".
 
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Hammster

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In Acts 2:44 it says "All the believers were together and had everything in common."
How do you understand "had everything in common" to be "had individual ownership of their respective property"???

In Acts 4:32 it says "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was thei own, but they shared everything they had."
How do you interpret "No one claimed that any of their possessions were their own" to mean "Everyone claimed their own possessions as individually their own private property"???
And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. (Acts 2:45, ESV)
 
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Yekcidmij

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In Acts 2:44 it says "All the believers were together and had everything in common."
How do you understand "had everything in common" to be "had individual ownership of their respective property"???

In Acts 4:32 it says "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was thei own, but they shared everything they had."
How do you interpret "No one claimed that any of their possessions were their own" to mean "Everyone claimed their own possessions as individually their own private property"???

Was Rome coordinating all of this via taxes and redistribution? Was Herod doing it? Hammster's point is that it wasn't a centralized government doing this via legislation, taxation, government programs, etc.. If you want to look at that historical time period, Bernie's domestic ideas are less comparable to those of Christians in Jerusalem, who acted voluntarily, and more comparable to those of Catiline, Sulla, and Julius Caesar over and against the likes of Cicero and the Republic.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. (Acts 2:45, ESV)
Correct - they were departing from what was their possessions and converting to have no individual possessions but rather redistributing the proceeds.

Don't forget that Acts 4:42 said that " No one claimed that any of their possessions was thei own, but they shared everything they had." This is the result of taking possessions they once considered their own and then changing over to communal possessions.

So now you agree that socialism by the Early Church is clearly demonstrated in the Bible and is therefore Biblical.
 
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Hammster

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Correct - they were departing from what was their possessions and converting to have no individual possessions but rather redistributing the proceeds.

Don't forget that Acts 4:42 said that " No one claimed that any of their possessions was thei own, but they shared everything they had." This is the result of taking possessions they once considered their own and then changing over to communal possessions.

So now you agree that socialism by the Early Church is clearly demonstrated in the Bible and is therefore Biblical.
You are reading into scripture what isn’t there.

And if this were truly socialism, and something that you support, you will sell everything that you own since it’s not yours.

Maybe use some of the money on a good commentary, while you’re at it.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Was Rome coordinating all of this via taxes and redistribution? Was Herod doing it? Hammster's point is that it wasn't a centralized government doing this via legislation, taxation, government programs, etc.. If you want to look at that historical time period, Bernie's domestic ideas are less comparable to those of Christians in Jerusalem, who acted voluntarily, and more comparable to those of Catiline, Sulla, and Julius Caesar over and against the likes of Cicero and the Republic.
Like Hammster you seem to miss the point that it was the Early Church who did this. As for the Roman Empire they certainly did their own social programs, providing bread and circuses as they saw fit, but that's not relevant.

The Christian model is socialism (well, more like communism actually, i.e. "communal living"). As Christians we mostly try to emulate what was modeled. Of course, this will carry into the societies in which we participate. We want the best possible society so we try to implement the best things. As Christians, we see that social programs that help everyone at the expense of the unnecessarily wealthy is what makes for a much better community. Therefore, we are going to try to make that part of our society, including how our government governs our society.

It's really that simple. Either you like the Biblical model or you hate and want to deny it.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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You are reading into scripture what isn’t there.
Actually, you are. I quoted it word for word:
Acts 2:44 "All the believers were together and had everything in common."
- You and I read this and I believe it but you say "NO! IT SAYS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!"

Acts 4:32 "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had."
- You and I read this and I believe it but you say "NO! IT SAYS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!"

Then you tell ME that I am reading something that isn't there??? Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!!!

And if this were truly socialism, and something that you support, you will sell everything that you own since it’s not yours.
Wrong. That's more like communism, for one thing. The Biblical model above is definitely close to communism. Unable to achieve that, however, socialism is at least a compromise where we aren't money-worshiping capitalists through and through.

Maybe use some of the money on a good commentary, while you’re at it.
No need, I have the Holy Spirit to help me discern Truth from God's Word.

I know what's not true is when someone states the opposite of what God's Word says, as you have done repeatedly, as I have just shown above (again).

What commentary is telling you that God's Word means the opposite of what it says?
 
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Hammster

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Actually, you are. I quoted it word for word:
Acts 2:44 "All the believers were together and had everything in common."
- You and I read this and I believe it but you say "NO! IT SAYS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!"

Acts 4:32 "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had."
- You and I read this and I believe it but you say "NO! IT SAYS PRIVATE PROPERTY!!!"

Then you tell ME that I am reading something that isn't there??? Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!!!


Wrong. That's more like communism, for one thing. The Biblical model above is definitely close to communism. Unable to achieve that, however, socialism is at least a compromise where we aren't money-worshiping capitalists through and through.


No need, I have the Holy Spirit to help me discern Truth from God's Word.

I know what's not true is when someone states the opposite of what God's Word says, as you have done repeatedly, as I have just shown above (again).

What commentary is telling you that God's Word means the opposite of what it says?
Please don’t blame your view on the Holy Spirit.
 
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Hammster

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Here’s something to consider when reading narratives. They generally tell us what was happening, but not always why. So just because a group of Christians were helping each other out in Jerusalem, this doesn’t mean it was happening everywhere, nor does it mean that it was the commanded behavior for everyone. There’s nothing in the didactic writings that state we should sell all of our property for the good of everyone.

New Jewish Christians were ostracized by the other Jews. So in a lot of cases, they lost out on income opportunities. They were really poor (not like the welfare poor that we have). They were trying to survive, not pay off school loans. So what the early church did was out of necessity.

Trying to take two verses out of context and use that as a pretext for socialism is really bad hermeneutics.
 
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Hammster

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I guess you do not read your Bible. If you did you would know that is an exact quote.
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
— 1 Timothy 6:10


“For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:10‬ ‭NLT‬‬


“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭6:10‬ ‭ESV‬‬


Those are much better translations.
 
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