Beliefs define our reality.

[povman]

Hi. Beliefs define our reality.

For example, pretend I am a christian (well, i sort of am). I believe Jesus was the son of God and he died for our sins. I know of people (probably most self proclaimed christians) who believe that people who dont believe in jesus are doomed to burn in hell.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Now picture me as an atheist (i am not). I believe the universe ripped itself out of nowhere and have scientific evidence for that. We evolved from apes, and when we die we decompose.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Hang on, if both versions of me are completely sure we are right, how could either of us be wrong? The atheist doesn't believe the bible is true because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that. The christian believes it IS true, because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that.
In fact, sometimes each person's belief is that the other person should follow their belief system if they want to live a fulfilling life.

How do you KNOW you're right?

[size=-3](Disclaimer: Noone knows my personal belief system, I assure you it doesn't exactly match either of the ones I described here)[/size]

 

[Eudaimonist]

Hang on, if both versions of me are completely sure we are right, how could either of us be wrong?

I think that is an excellent argument for never shutting off one's powers of reason. One should ever say: I'm convinced that I'm right and so I will never think about the possibility of being wrong, or examine evidence or arguments to the contrary, ever again. One should at least be open to this, even if it looks like a open-and-shut case.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ReluctantProphet]

I think that is an excellent argument for never shutting off one's powers of reason. One should ever say: I'm convinced that I'm right and so I will never think about the possibility of being wrong, or examine evidence or arguments to the contrary, ever again. One should at least be open to this, even if it looks like a open-and-shut case.

Although I would be the last person to argue with these statements, the question was, how do you know that these statements are wiser than any other statements.

But the title of the OP is a serious problem - subtle deception in action.

Beliefs do not DEFINE reality. Beliefs determine its flow only to the extent that a person can affect other things. A person's beliefs affect that person's future more than other's. Reality is not defined by belief, but perhaps "refined" by ACCURATELY believing in it.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Although I would be the last person to argue with these statements, the question was, how do you know that these statements are wiser than any other statements.

But the title of the OP is a serious problem - subtle deception in action.

Beliefs do not DEFINE reality. Beliefs determine its flow only to the extent that a person can affect other things. A person's beliefs affect that person's future more than other's. Reality is not defined by belief, but perhaps "refined" by ACCURATELY believing in it.

There is only one way to truly know when you are right about your beliefs. There is one concept spoken with a single word that reveals it all. That one concept determines the height of every achievement and the certainty of every failure. It is the qualifier for the answer to every question ever asked. It is the need behind every search and the compass for its direction. It is the base for all science and the durability for all religion. It is what brings the certainty to every certain conclusion and what brings doubt to every suspicion. It is what determines knowledge from illusion and deception. It is the anti-deception.

But despite the grand power of that lonely concept, its word is very seldom spoken. The concept of it is presumed in disregard. The consequence of irreverence to it is surreptitiously fatal, yet remains hidden behind clouds of careless frivolity. It is hardly a secret word. But just isn't fun. It is just unloved.

That most defining guide to truth and certain knowledge is the simple concept of accuracy.

Of course the question was, how do you know when you are accurate? The answer is as simple as the question. You verify your accuracy. How do you know that your verification was accurate? You verify the verification. And again.. and again.. and again.

How do you verify anything? You question the potential for inaccuracy. You seek any possible way for it to be truly inaccurate. You question each and every component of it with respect to its whole. You seek anything left out that might be relevant to its completeness. Then you question the answers to your questions. You even question the validity of the questions. When you finally run out of relevant and valid questions, then and only then, you know.

Seek with accuracy the possibility of inaccuracy and you find accurate knowledge at the end of the journey.

NEVER PRESUME thus leave no place for evil to enter.





(Note to the Christian: How can you love truth if you love not accuracy? How can you love God if you seek not accuracy in who God truly is? Question even your presumed answers. Do you think that God condemns or fears accuracy, or that He prefers it? If the Christian would merely seek accuracy by the means of endless cleaning of the shadows of potential inaccuracy within himself and with full heart, then he would save Christianity and the entire world from failure.)

 

[moogoob]

I believe our beliefs provide a filter through which you view the world (unless you're a "clear" scientologist, of course ). It defines reality for us and us alone, but as said above should be open for change.

I think we should all question our beliefs, and never stop questioning them.

EDIT: As an example of the power of the belief filter, look at Young Earth Creationists, who when they look at an animal assume it hasn't changed since it popped into existence 6000 years ago. Simmilarly, a Deist like myself would assume god knew what he was doing when he created everything bilions of years ago, so at this portion of the vast cosmic diceroll the animal currently looks this way because of natural law. An Atheist would chalk it up to ranom chance, or "the universe is the way it is because we can observe it as such.".

All of the above are valid, yet very different ways of viewing the same thing.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

I believe our beliefs provide a filter through which you view the world (unless you're a "clear" scientologist, of course ). It defines reality for us and us alone, but as said above should be open for change.

I think we should all question our beliefs, and never stop questioning them.

Perfectly agree, but how do you know this?

Often the Christian will tell you that it is time to stop questioning and simply have faith in what you already believe.

Any argument against having faith for at least some period of time is doomed. Faith is most certainly a requirement. But when do you pick-up questioning again?

At what point do you stop proceeding on the existing plan and consider updates?

 

[moogoob]

Perfectly agree, but how do you know this?

Often the Christian will tell you that it is time to stop questioning and simply have faith in what you already believe.

Any argument against having faith for at least some period of time is doomed. Faith is most certainly a requirement. But when do you pick-up questioning again?

At what point do you stop proceeding on the existing plan and consider updates?

At what point? I never stop questioning. Sometimes my beliefs bend, but that's okay, it's when they break and can no longer apply that you should look elsewhere.

Just my opinion.

 

[variant]

Hi. Beliefs define our reality.

For example, pretend I am a christian (well, i sort of am). I believe Jesus was the son of God and he died for our sins. I know of people (probably most self proclaimed christians) who believe that people who dont believe in jesus are doomed to burn in hell.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Now picture me as an atheist (i am not). I believe the universe ripped itself out of nowhere and have scientific evidence for that. We evolved from apes, and when we die we decompose.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Hang on, if both versions of me are completely sure we are right, how could either of us be wrong? The atheist doesn't believe the bible is true because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that. The christian believes it IS true, because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that.
In fact, sometimes each person's belief is that the other person should follow their belief system if they want to live a fulfilling life.

How do you KNOW you're right?

[SIZE=-3](Disclaimer: Noone knows my personal belief system, I assure you it doesn't exactly match either of the ones I described here)[/SIZE]

I am an agnostic; I don't believe either of those versions of reality.

For me reality tends to define my beliefs as I am an empiricist, and I do tests when i am not sure on something. If there is no test available, I am unsure, and I live with that.

Think about it this way, your beliefs do not matter with regards to reality.

If you believed that no physical harm could ever come to you and you walked onto a street in front of a bus, reality will prove you wrong.

Beliefs define how you act in reality, not what reality is.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Beliefs define how you act in reality, not what reality is.

BINGO!!

 

[Norseman]

Beliefs do not define reality. If you believe there is no gravity, you will still die after jumping off the Empire State Building. Your beliefs define your perception of reality, which I think is the definition of belief. As much as possible, beliefs should be supported by reason, evidence and experience. Without that, you have very little reason to believe your beliefs to be accurate.

 

[povman]

Ah okay - I was wrong to title this thread that way. ReluctantProphet has the gist of what I am saying (so do others). Basically what I'm trying to say is that there can be no 'one way to salvation', which is what a lot of people here seem to believe. It is a very ignorant statement to make... eg, what happens if I live in isolation from the minute I am born, and never even HEAR about that belief system... how can I be saved through it?

Perhaps people believe ignorantly because their belief system includes fear of other beliefs.

By the way, I am holding back from discussing the possibility that we have hardwired unconcious beliefs that overrule our concious ones. ie, even though you think you are invincible, you might unconciously know that you aren't. There is no point discussing this, because my personal unconcious beliefs are not going to change.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

..Basically what I'm trying to say is that there can be no 'one way to salvation', which is what a lot of people here seem to believe. It is a very ignorant statement to make... eg, what happens if I live in isolation from the minute I am born, and never even HEAR about that belief system... how can I be saved through it?

Emmm...

I have to disagree with that statement. Not because of any particular faith, but simply because you have presumed that a path cannot be defined in such a way as to be the fundamental process of achievement to a particular goal.

In effect, you have said that "heading northward" cannot be the only way to get to the north pole.

You might think that by heading south for a while, you will circle around and get to the north pole anyway, but actually you end up heading north during that circle and that part of the journey was really the only part that was getting you there.

What is involved in the salvation path spoken of by Jesus is a process. You need not know or say the name "Jesus" at any time. The process is a matter of logic and reality. You need not even know that you are on the path for it to produce the same results.

Buddha did not find his nirvana by looking for it and certainly not by following a prescribed trail. He found it quite by accident.

The path that Jesus spoke of is very similar and following that path can actually happen just as accidently (perhaps a little less).

In order to reach any goal, there will be certain critical concerns. If you spell out only those critical concerns and call those "the only path", then you have no choice but to be right.

Jesus was merely saying that all He wanted anyone to do was to attend to those critical concerns and let anything else be what it is.

Jesus spoke against trying to make concrete laws that govern all behavior. He kept to the basic essentials (walking on only water).

So you might argue whether Jesus' way was really the only way, but to say that there can be no one way, is not really logically sound.

I don't see how any path couldn't be defined in a single "way" that was designed to include all possibilities of actual achievement and thus truly be the "one way".

By the way, I am holding back from discussing the possibility that we have hardwired unconcious beliefs that overrule our concious ones. ie, even though you think you are invincible, you might unconciously know that you aren't. There is no point discussing this, because my personal unconcious beliefs are not going to change.

If it makes you feel any better, realize that your instincts have already been strongly honed by evolutionary effects and besides that, above your instincts is a buffer of emotion which is there to make all of the adjustments that experience demands that could not be directly programmed into the instincts. Your consciousness doesn't come until above those emotions so as to work out the reasoning that the emotions couldn't handle. Each level works to a large degree by the permission of the others.

Chemicals and germs are your only real enemy when it comes to your brain working things out.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

Perhaps it would be better said that your brain is already pre-wired to re-wire. This is known as conditioning through experiences an is one of those critical essential segments to that "one path".

In Buddhism, you meditate regularly. This purpose of this is to condition your mind and thus literally rewire your brain into thinking more readily in a particular direction.

In Christianity, the thing called prayer is that same way. Of course, just as with the word meditate, it helps to know what the word "prayer" actually means else you are not really conditioning the right paths at all.

Jesus said to pray ALWAYS and that is exactly what He meant. To pray means to humbly seek. It is the same thing that the atheist complains about the Christian not really doing.

Humbly seeking means that you do not presume and hold pride in already knowing everything important to know. It means that you re-examine all that you have concluded constantly (removing your sandals (understanding)).

Mental conditioning stops your mind from confusing itself with presupposed concepts that were really only earlier guesses.

As I said earlier, you only truly know anything beyond a guess when you can no longer think of any way to question it when you are honestly seeking any trace of doubt.

Honesty with yourself is the issue. Your inner desires prevent you from really being honest until you are forced to face the facts (God dragging you to Jesus' path).

 

[povman]

Sorry if this post comes out as braindumpy... that would be because it is.

In effect, you have said that "heading northward" cannot be the only way to get to the north pole.

Who said I wanted to get to the north pole in the first place though?

To use the christian/atheist example again:
A christian's goal is eternal life in heaven.
An atheist's goal can be whatever he wants it to be, it might be to make as much money as possible through any means necessary.
These are completely separate goals! No one way can possibly get you both.

Of course, the atheist's goal is rather shallow and he might reorient himself some way along the path more in the direction of the christian.

My OP was designed as a challenge to bible bashers who try to inflict their belief system on people who don't believe the same as them. How can they possibly be so sure that they are right?

 

[ReluctantProphet]

..Who said I wanted to get to the north pole in the first place though?

To use the christian/atheist example again:
A christian's goal is eternal life in heaven.
An atheist's goal can be whatever he wants it to be, it might be to make as much money as possible through any means necessary.
These are completely separate goals! No one way can possibly get you both.

Point taken.

My OP was designed as a challenge to bible bashers who try to inflict their belief system on people who don't believe the same as them. How can they possibly be so sure that they are right?

It seems that you were intending to really ask which goal could be determined to be the "right" goal (perhaps not).

I had taken your question as asking how anyone could "know" of any knowledge with certainty.

The issue of what is the "right" goal can actually be determined logically as well though.

To answer that one, it is required to understand the logical purpose of life. Popular opinion (set by media and such) is that the purpose of life cannot be known or at least isn't. The fact of the matter is that it not only can be, but is.

Of course, as with everything, to reach agreement, there must be honest communication and seeking agreement going on. As variant pointed out, forums aren't great for that sort of thing simply because of the limited ability to communicate with such a varied audience and their free ability to simply ignore what they didn't want to hear.

The point is that if the Christian and the atheist agree to what the purpose of life actually is, then it is only a matter of accurate reasoning as to whether seeking money, how much, and by whom is the "right" thing to be doing.

But since just about everyone has bought into their certainty that the purpose of life cannot be known or there simply isn't one, such discussions and efforts are futilized until people are forced to address the issue regardless of what they thought or liked.

This, in fact, is the reasoning for such hard times before the "second coming". Without serious suffering, people don't see the need in paying any serious attention to anyone.

One of the many ways to know the real Messiah from the false, is simply by listening for explanation of the purpose of life, without which true peace cannot be rationally maintained. There are more substantial ways to know one from the other, but that is a different thread.

 

[phsyxx]

I think what you're all talking about here are "bliks"
beliefs which affect an individual's behaviour.

No matter how much falsity or truth there seems to be in one person's belief, an opposing believer who is totally unprepared to change their set of beliefs will act differently, according to his or her beliefs.

So, for example, a student at college believes all the teachers are out to get him, or secretly plotting to kill him- now, it doesn't matter how nice they are to him, he will say that it is a trick to lull him into a false sense of security.
Now, whether or not this belief is true, it affects this student's behaviour.

So- in that sense, belief defines YOUR individual reality- but no-one elses.

Cogito ergo sum. Beyond that nothing is definite.

 

[ReluctantProphet]

..So- in that sense, belief defines YOUR individual reality- but no-one elses.

Cogito ergo sum. Beyond that nothing is definite.

Although I agree with what you have said, I still have to disagree with your usage of the words "define" and "reality".

Your behavior affects your future. Your reality is determined by your surroundings, not by what you believe of them. Your beliefs will alter your surroundings depending on how your surroundings reacted to your behavior and thus affect your future.

To define something means to give it relevant component association to other understood concepts. You can define reality in many ways. This has nothing to do with changing that reality, but only in how you have chosen to conceptualize it.

Technically, your beliefs do define reality in your mind, but I don't think that is what was intended.

 

[Im_A]

Hi. Beliefs define our reality.

For example, pretend I am a christian (well, i sort of am). I believe Jesus was the son of God and he died for our sins. I know of people (probably most self proclaimed christians) who believe that people who dont believe in jesus are doomed to burn in hell.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Now picture me as an atheist (i am not). I believe the universe ripped itself out of nowhere and have scientific evidence for that. We evolved from apes, and when we die we decompose.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Hang on, if both versions of me are completely sure we are right, how could either of us be wrong? The atheist doesn't believe the bible is true because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that. The christian believes it IS true, because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that.
In fact, sometimes each person's belief is that the other person should follow their belief system if they want to live a fulfilling life.

How do you KNOW you're right?

[SIZE=-3](Disclaimer: Noone knows my personal belief system, I assure you it doesn't exactly match either of the ones I described here)[/SIZE]

how do i know i'm right? i don't. that's the beauty of it.

and in regards to beliefs defining our reality, i agree.

 

[phsyxx]

To answer this question, surely we must ask first:
What is reality?

 

[elman]

Hi. Beliefs define our reality.

For example, pretend I am a christian (well, i sort of am). I believe Jesus was the son of God and he died for our sins. I know of people (probably most self proclaimed christians) who believe that people who dont believe in jesus are doomed to burn in hell.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Now picture me as an atheist (i am not). I believe the universe ripped itself out of nowhere and have scientific evidence for that. We evolved from apes, and when we die we decompose.

This is what I believe, and I dont think anything else could be true.

Hang on, if both versions of me are completely sure we are right, how could either of us be wrong? The atheist doesn't believe the bible is true because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that. The christian believes it IS true, because of his past experience with it, and he is happy with that.
In fact, sometimes each person's belief is that the other person should follow their belief system if they want to live a fulfilling life.

How do you KNOW you're right?

[size=-3](Disclaimer: Noone knows my personal belief system, I assure you it doesn't exactly match either of the ones I described here)[/size]

In theology no one knows they are right. In fact we all know we make many mistakes. What we believe effects our perception of reality but reality is the same before and after we form our beliefs.