Belief not a choice?

[LostMarbels]

NO YOU'RE WRONG SEE I-... Oh wait what? Oh man... I'm wrong? That can't be right I'm me.

Self Parody aside you're right I've missed the mark here a bit. Common knowledge Can't be a belief, how does that work Grim?

Let's say belief is a blind educated guess based on knowledge and personal experience. A placeholder until confirmation of the positive or negative. A thought hypothesis if you will.

OK.... that was funny. See? We are both just people.

I'm sorry but I would have to question the notion of a "blind educated guess"? Some people are willing to die for their blind educated guess. I would think it to be more concrete. Almost the result of the testing of the hypothesis.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I don't know if I accept day to day general knowledge as a belief. I know the sun rises in the east. Kind of like I don't "believe" there is a computer in front of me right now. That is apparent. I'm thinking belief is almost a rationale, or some form of accepted construct.

Yes but if I stood next to you and said “why do you believe that there is a computer in front of you’”, you’d say well it is apparent, its right there. It is a rationale, it is an accepted construct (the computer in front of your eyes, thus its not a conscious choice.) The question can get sticky when somebody asks you why you believe in something that they can’t see, and why you formed that belief, when it isn’t a rationale they can understand, because its not an apparent construct to them, thus they can’t choose to believe it for those very reasons.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So what cognition do you feel is used in the formation of a belief?

I have a hard time understanding the reasoning of a belief not being choice. I understand you might not hold that view. I am hoping to come to some consensuses of what belief is. How do you come to your understanding of what is logical to form your belief?

Belief is not a choice in the sense that we cannot suddenly decide to believe something. We can decide to investigate beliefs to determine whether they are tenable. We can even decide to ignore information if it goes against those beliefs. We cannot, however, decide to be convinced one moment and then unconvinced the next, and then back again, and so forth. Our beliefs are not entirely subject to our will. I cannot decide to sincerely believe that there is a unicorn in my bedroom. And even if I could, I would have great difficulty maintaining that belief when I walk into my bedroom and find no unicorn there.

 

[LostMarbels]

Well... I am a "if a tree falls in a Forrest..." kind of guy and I got to thinking about belief. The more I think about it the more I think "belief" is more than a thought process. And do we actually chose to form beliefs? Evolutionarily speaking, why has this trait been passed down? Why do we need to formulate beliefs? We have the ability to reason, and rationalize. We do not need to believe " " is so. We can rationalize " " is so because of reason. Because of our rational observance of " " we can understand what it is, and how to deal with it latter. Fire hot. Don't touch fire.

But belief... Our beliefs actually guide and form who we are. If we believe " " is bad, we will guide our lives to keep from " ". A belief is both introspective, and part of our environment. Also a belief carries meaning, a purpose, and emotion. Logic is raw. Has no feeling. Logic says if I flip my light switch, it is highly probable my lights will come on. There is no emotion in it. No personal meaning if you catch my point. A belief however is like our logic given meaning, and assigned emotion.

This made me wonder. Can other animals believe? Or is it only humans, and why would we be the only species? Further still. Is the ability to believe part of our consciousness? Or who we are? I loved the movie Chappie, because it asks the question of what our consciousness is. If we did download a person's consciousness into a sentient AI would that AI now be able to believe? Or would all the one's and zero's revert it back to raw logic? This renewed the entire question to me, do we actually chose to form beliefs, or are we hard wired?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Beliefs can also take the form of an opinion. Like say for instance I believe vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream (which is established fact) In which they are completely subjective again to one's knowledge and experiences but there isn't a "right" answer.

 

[LostMarbels]

Beliefs can also take the form of an opinion. Like say for instance I believe vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream (which is established fact) In which they are completely subjective again to one's knowledge and experiences but there isn't a "right" answer.

Pffftttt...... Vanilla? Definitely Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough, but we,ll let it slide.

Interesting point. At what point do we establish there is a difference from knowing vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream, and believing vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream. Would you say there is a difference? Maybe emotional response?

Hope I'm not to far out there for you. What make us "believe" it is the best?

 

[LostMarbels]

Belief is not a choice in the sense that we cannot suddenly decide to believe something. We can decide to investigate beliefs to determine whether they are tenable. We can even decide to ignore information if it goes against those beliefs. We cannot, however, decide to be convinced one moment and then unconvinced the next, and then back again, and so forth. Our beliefs are not entirely subject to our will. I cannot decide to sincerely believe that there is a unicorn in my bedroom. And even if I could, I would have great difficulty maintaining that belief when I walk into my bedroom and find no unicorn there.

I get that. We need continued info to maintain a belief. Or new info to change it.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Pffftttt...... Vanilla? Definitely Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough, but we,ll let it slide.

I see that we are destined to be enemies.

Interesting point. At what point do we establish there is a difference from knowing vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream, and believing vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream. Would you say there is a difference? Maybe emotional response?

Hope I'm not to far out there for you. What make us "believe" it is the best?

Experiences mostly. I've eaten other flavors of ice cream and have worked at cold stone before. And I have cemented my belief that Vanilla is the best. However my definition of best is also subjective. So there's even more layers to that definition of belief.

 

[LostMarbels]

Can I ask your opinion of this? http://www.christianforums.com/threads/belief-not-a-choice.7889808/page-2#post-67992769

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Well... I am a "if a tree falls in a Forrest..." kind of guy and I got to thinking about belief. The more I think about it the more I think "belief" is more than a thought process. And do we actually chose to form beliefs?

Yes.

Evolutionarily speaking, why has this trait been passed down? Why do we need to formulate beliefs? We have the ability to reason, and rationalize.

We didn't at the beginning and that's a very important point to make. Early hominid cultures new at best 1/100000th of what we know about the world today. Their brains helped them develop a mechanism to help them control and make sense of the world around them. They may have believed early beasts were gods and rain could be summoned. These evolved into traditional folk tale and their presumably as old as humans themselves. Early Hominids actually believed in an after life and buried their dead with their belongings.

The reason we needed to believe something is because we needed foundation. We needed something to help us understand the world around us so we could operate off of it as a basis for our actions. And we evolved the art of storytelling and leadership from it and flourishing societies became of it, based on the belief of benevolent and manevolent spirits. Early tales of right and wrong. This helped us, believe it or not. It was the basis of many early societies. A belief.

We do not need to believe

Not anymore. We've learned quite a bit about life and our earth and we've found a much more solid basis in science. We have ways of testing whether a rain storm is a god or just the water cycle now. And as I stated before on, it starts out as a blind guess appeal to intuition; knowledge and experience. And early beliefs have been similar to this.

"My village has fallen sick. Sickness is divine punishment for crime. Therefore a criminal is among my village."

Because that logically makes sense if you know nothing about germ theory. But as we discovered much more about our world and discovered germs and bacteria and such, this belief has been proven to be inaccurate and as such invalid as of today.

We can rationalize is so because of reason.

Early rationalization was nowhere near as sharp as today. People believed the Earth was flat because intuitively when they look forward they saw a straight stretch of land. People believed the sun orbited the earth because intuitively they saw it move around. People believed the moon was a light in the sky because intuitively it glowed.

But their rationale was incorrect despite at the time making perfect sense. As knowledge moved forward these beliefs died off.

Because of our rational observance of " " we can understand what it is, and how to deal with it latter. Fire hot. Don't touch fire.

This is most likely the early intuition that got it all started. The human brain being able to understand the correlation between things. And began to go into overdrive since then.

Heck we still do it today.

But belief... Our beliefs actually guide and form who we are. If we believe " " is bad, we will guide our lives to keep from " ".

Higher intuition and cognitive development plus the benefits of high social structure and shared knowledge all play a huge role in that.

A belief is both introspective, and part of our environment. Also a belief carries meaning, a purpose, and emotion.

You're right.

Logic is raw. Has no feeling. Logic says if I flip my light switch, it is highly probable my lights will come on. There is no emotion in it.

Well yes, it's a tool. Tools don't really come with a joke in the wrapper.

No personal meaning if you catch my point. A belief however is like our logic given meaning, and assigned emotion.

Roll with that. A belief can use logic to be formed.

This made me wonder. Can other animals believe?

I'm sure that some can. Self aware animals like Pigs, Elephants, and dolphins I'm sure can believe.

I remember I was a door to door salesman and I met a lady and her dog. The dog was a rescue. Big fella. But however never let me approach to pet it. It didn't mind my female partner but me, no. Turns out the dog was fiercely abused by its previous owner so badly it no longer trusted any males and would do avoid them or keep them at distance. I've never seen an animal so traumatized and it made me both angry and sad.

But this example helped me see that animals also have a way of recognizing, learning, and forming opinions on a higher emotional and cognitive level. It's able to 1) recognize human males and 2) associate its torture and pain with human males and 3) act out of its self preservation based on its past experience.

Poor dog.

Or is it only humans, and why would we be the only species?

I don't think so.

Further still. Is the ability to believe part of our consciousness? Or who we are?

It's not unique to us. It most likely exists in other animals, it's just we're unique because we seem to be the only ones who think about it.

I loved the movie Chappie, because it asks the question of what our consciousness is. If we did download a person's consciousness into a sentient AI would that AI now be able to believe? Or would all the one's and zero's revert it back to raw logic? This renewed the entire question to me, do we actually chose to form beliefs, or are we hard wired?

You and your brain are separate entities. You handle the autonomous actions and the decision making. Your brain... well everything else.

So the answer to your question is both.

Thoughts pop in and out of your head because your brain is just having fun with you. You can of course concentrate on a certain topic and if your brain chooses not to fart you'll have a hard think but other times your brain will grab an ipod and put that song your really like on in your mind... on repeat... until it drives you crazy or makes you sing.

It'll start making you think about a random ex from years ago. It'll make you randomly sad.

You handle the looking with your eyes. Your brain handles the deciphering by using knowledge you gained.

Check this sentence out: fi yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too. Cna yuo raed tihs?

You didn't consciously decipher that, thank mr. brain and your knowledge of reading, phonetics, and linguistics or that would be gibberish to you. And also your eyes read everything upside down so thank brain for that too.

Looky here:

This next one caught me off guard.

And as a bonus: http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/3281896/You+are+now+aware

Try bending your pinky without bending your ring finger.

Try your hardest to hold your breath for one hour.

The brain will always be behind you and clean up your mess and give you a hand. It's fascinating.

 

[lesliedellow]

If somebody offered you a $1,000,000 to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, could you do it? or would you find that you cannot simply choose to believe anything you like?

 

[LostMarbels]

Thanks... but just let it die. I thought ther was more to this like some sort of predestination or something. So many were so adamant about it.

 

[Joshua260]

I think belief is a matter of choice. For example, one can choose to believe in String Theory, or they can choose to believe in Loop Quantum Gravity. I think the decision would be based on which theory the decision-maker feels best explains reality. So one would evaluate the arguments and evidence and then decide which theory is more probable. Suppose that their life depended on which theory was correct. They decide that String Theory is more credible, and decide to trust their belief (with their life) that the theory was actually the correct explanation. I think that's where "faith" comes in...the decision-maker comes to trust their belief that String Theory is actually correct.

 

[lesliedellow]

I think belief is a matter of choice. For example, one can choose to believe in String Theory, or they can choose to believe in Loop Quantum Gravity. I think the decision would be based on which theory the decision-maker feels best explains reality. So one would evaluate the arguments and evidence and then decide which theory is more probable. Suppose that their life depended on which theory was correct. They decide that String Theory is more credible, and decide to trust their belief (with their life) that the theory was actually the correct explanation. I think that's where "faith" comes in...the decision-maker comes to trust their belief that String Theory is actually correct.

If somebody becomes convinced that string theory is correct, he does not have the option of believing that loop quantum gravity is correct, unless he finds some major flaw in the reasons he had for believing in string theory, and then he does not have the option of continuing to believe in it.

Maybe he would then find himself believing neither, but he cannot choose to believe something he cannot persuade himself is true. He cannot arbitrarily choose to believe in God, unless he can first persuade himself that God is likely to exist, and if he does persuade himself of that, then he cannot arbitrarily choose not to believe in God.

 

[Joshua260]

If somebody becomes convinced that string theory is correct, he does not have the option of believing that loop quantum gravity is correct, unless he finds some major flaw in the reasons he had for believing in string theory, and then he does not have the option of continuing to believe in it.

Maybe he would then find himself believing neither, but he cannot choose to believe something he cannot persuade himself is true. He cannot arbitrarily choose to believe in God, unless he can first persuade himself that God is likely to exist, and if he does persuade himself of that, then he cannot arbitrarily choose not to believe in God.

Suppose that a man told me that plane A was dangerous and that I should get on plane B. Suppose also that a second man told me that plane B was dangerous and that I should get on plane A. Do I not have to choose which man to believe?

 

[lesliedellow]

Suppose that a man told me that plane A was dangerous and that I should get on plane B. Suppose also that a second man told me that plane B was dangerous and that I should get on plane A. Do I not have to choose which man to believe?

Unless you investigate further, you have no basis for making any choice, other than flipping a coin. After investigating further, and finding a bomb on one plane, but not on the other, you would have no choice which man you believed.

 

[Joshua260]

Unless you investigate further, you have no basis for making any choice, other than flipping a coin. After investigating further, and finding a bomb on one plane, but not on the other, you would have no choice which man you believed.

But without further evidence being provided, you still would have to choose to believe one or the other, correct?

 

[lesliedellow]

But without further evidence being provided, you still would have to choose to believe one or the other, correct?

If I didn't care for my safety, I could board one plane or the other, but could I say that I believed the person who told me the plane was safe? Not really. I would have no rational basis for holding such a belief, and, for all I know, he might be lying through his teeth. I would have no reason to believe otherwise. It comes back to the one simple fact that you can't compel yourself to believe something, unless you have a basis for belief, and, if you do have a basis for belief, that automatically cuts off any possibility of believing the opposite.

 

[Joshua260]

If I didn't care for my safety, I could board one plane or the other, but could I say that I believed the person who told me the plane was safe? Not really. I would have no rational basis for holding such a belief, and, for all I know, he might be lying through his teeth. I would have no reason to believe otherwise. It comes back to the one simple fact that you can't compel yourself to believe something, unless you have a basis for belief, and, if you do have a basis for belief, that automatically cuts off any possibility of believing the opposite.

It seems to me (given that the evidence provided is equal) that I could choose to believe one or the other of the men in my example.

I think the difference between what we are asserting is that you are arguing for a passive type of belief (which you say is the only type of belief), while I am arguing for the possibility of a second type which is an assertive type of belief.

Allow me to provide an example of each:
passive act of believing: as you asked..."could I say that I believed the person who told me the plane was safe? Not really."
assertive act of believing: as I would ask..."could I choose to believe one man or the other? Of course I could."

So again, it seems to me that there are two ways to believe. One in which you are presented with evidence and are persuaded to one side or the other, or one in which the evidence for both sides is even and we are forced to choose which one to believe. BTW, when I look up various definition for "belief", I do not find that belief has to be related to some amount of evidence...so it seems that both types of belief are allowed.

 

[Ken-1122]

It seems to me (given that the evidence provided is equal) that I could choose to believe one or the other of the men in my example.

I think the difference between what we are asserting is that you are arguing for a passive type of belief (which you say is the only type of belief), while I am arguing for the possibility of a second type which is an assertive type of belief.

Allow me to provide an example of each:
passive act of believing: as you asked..."could I say that I believed the person who told me the plane was safe? Not really."
assertive act of believing: as I would ask..."could I choose to believe one man or the other? Of course I could."

So again, it seems to me that there are two ways to believe. One in which you are presented with evidence and are persuaded to one side or the other, or one in which the evidence for both sides is even and we are forced to choose which one to believe. BTW, when I look up various definition for "belief", I do not find that belief has to be related to some amount of evidence...so it seems that both types of belief are allowed.

There is a big difference between a guess and what you believe. If you were in a football game and the ref toss a coin in the air and says "heads or tails" are you telling me whatever you choose is going to be more than a guess?

Ken