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Being Taught

Osage Bluestem

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How do you handle being taught?

Honestly, I've spent a great amount of time not being taught but evaluating my teachers to see if the things they say are true, and I usually go my own way because of that.

I'm trying a new angle of submitting to the teaching of my pastor and seeing where this goes. He is a PCA pastor, conservative, amillenial, WCF confessional, knows greek, has spent years in ministry and church planting, and I discern he is doing his best to teach the truth.

So, I am jettisoning credo baptism, premillenialism, and congregational church government, and embracing his views instead and I feel pretty good about that.

Of course I still check, but I see no reason to believe he doesn't check out as good.

How do you feel is the proper way to submit to a teaching elder's teaching authority?
 

JM

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Osage,

I think reconsidering your beliefs is a good practice and I encourage you to do so.

The question should be asked, why did you believe in credobaptism, premillenialism, and congregational church government?

Are you changing your beliefs/denying your beliefs based on scripture or the authority of a teacher?

Don't get me wrong it is a good thing to submit to the local church authority on non-essential issues. When or if you disagree make your disagreement plain to your Elders but remain silent with fellow members. I would encourage you to read the scripture and examine them as your final authority. Exhaust your chain reference system and work through a concordance.

jm


 
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Osage Bluestem

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JM said:
The question should be asked, why did you believe in credobaptism, premillenialism, and congregational church government?

Are you changing your beliefs/denying your beliefs based on scripture or the authority of a teacher?

1. Credo baptism - I was raised that way and believe all explicit biblical examples of baptism are credo.
2. Premillennialism - A recent thing for me. MacArthur did it mostly and the fact that some post apostolic fathers held that view. I was raised amil.
3. Congregational - Raised this way but don't trust it. Too many uneducated factions. The bible can be interpreted to espouse any of the three forms of government.

4. These three issues I have flip flopped on over time. I am looking at it and saying I think the Reformers got these right. MacArthur is wrong. And I think my pastor is better educated than me and sincere so I trust him. Regarding scripture I love it read it my conscience is bound to it but I recognize that I can only read it in English and that many better educated men than me who hold to the same hermeneutics and principles I discern are right all agree. These consist of Calvin and then the Reformed who penned the three forms of unity and the WCF and those pastors and theologians in this tradition. I think the Reformed faith is the closest thing to apostolic Christianity , the "catholic" faith, that there is. So, I submit to it and peel off my pride in favor of the joy of the Lord. I feel much better this way and enjoy my studies conversations and prayer time. I feel it is also best for my family to give them the consistency of this theology and fellowship.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Good. Now run through scripture on these subjects and post your thoughts using references from the word.

Ok. That's a big assignment. Please give me a little time to get it done.

It might be next week, as I am working right now and will leave for Oklahoma as soon as I get off work and spend the weekend up there visiting family.

I'll use the scripture proofs from the WCF. (My WCF with scripture proofs is at home)
 
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JM

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Starting with the confession to understand your former beliefs is probably not helpful. First try to understand the positions you have taught and posted about here on the forum before trying to accept and prove a different position. If you change your mind about the three theological items you listed, it would be beneficial to post a retraction of your former beliefs.

When you are ready to look at the Confessions compare them and try to see where or how they differ and why.

Tabular Comparison of 1646 WCF and 1689 LBCF
 
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bricklayer

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I did not learn how to learn by being taught until I had enough accomplishment to ease my ego enough to assume the humility required to learn by being taught.

I am not unaccomplished, but I am completely "uncreditialed".

Ironically, my life now consists more of building men than it does building structures. Many of these young men first need to learn how to learn by being taught. If they only knew how God has gone before them and prepared a way for them in me. He really does work all things together for the good of those called according to His purpose.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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JM said:
Starting with the confession to understand your former beliefs is probably not helpful. First try to understand the positions you have taught and posted about here on the forum before trying to accept and prove a different position. If you change your mind about the three theological items you listed, it would be beneficial to post a retraction of your former beliefs.

When you are ready to look at the Confessions compare them and try to see where or how they differ and why.

Tabular Comparison of 1646 WCF and 1689 LBCF

I've already changed my mind. But indeed there are scriptural arguments for each position. I've been reviewing these things during the months I've not been posting here. My wife was paedo the whole time though.
 
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I go to a Christian & Missionary Alliance church. The Congregation is primarily Dispensational, and I'm Amill Covenantal Baptist. The pastor is not Dispensational, but the two elders are. How I submit to their authority is that I listen to their teaching, submit to what I know to be scriptural, test what I'm not sure of with scripture, and quietly ignore what I consider a minor difference in interpretation; more often than not it is simply biblical application that none would dispute. So far, I have not come across any teaching within my Church that I consider a danger to the Gospel. Most of my teaching is from my self studying. I'm well aware of several differences of theology within my church; most are Dispensational, some are charismatic, some are cessationists, some are simi-cessationist like myself, and a few that lean towards Arminianism; but, we are all unified by Christ. We are all pretty candid about we're we stand on certain issues, but our love for one another keeps us from fruitless debates, but it does make for some interesting discussions.
 
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Osage Bluestem

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Good. Now run through scripture on these subjects and post your thoughts using references from the word.

Well, there's a ton of scripture references for the material in question in the confession. I agree with it.
CHAPTER XXVII

Of the Sacraments

Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace, immediately instituted by God, to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him; as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church, and the rest of the world; and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.

Rom. iv. 11; Gen. xvii. 7, 10; Matt. xxviii. 19; 1 Cor. xi. 23; 1 Cor x. 16; 1 Cor. xi. 25, 26; Gal. iii. 17; Rom. xv. 8; Exod. xii. 48; Gen xxxiv. 14; Rom. vi. 3, 4; 1 Cor. x. 16, 21.

II. There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified; whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.

Gen. xvii. 10; Matt. xxvi. 27, 28; Tit. iii. 5.

III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them: neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.

Rom. ii. 28, 29; 1 Pet. iii. 21; Matt. iii. 11; 1 Cor. xii. 13; Matt. xxvi. 27, 28; Matt. xxviii. 19, 20.

IV. There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.

Matt. xxviii. 19; 1 Cor. xi. 20, 23; 1 Cor. iv. l; Heb. v. 4.

V. The sacraments of the Old Testament, in regard of the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the New.

1 Cor. x. 1, 2, 3, 4.


CHAPTER XXVIII

Of Baptism

Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.

Matt. xxviii. 19; 1 Cor. xii. 13; Rom. iv. 11 with Col. ii. 11. 12; Gal. iii. 27; Rom. vi. 5; Tit. iii. 5; Mark i. 4; Rom. vi. 3, 4; Matt. xxviii. 19, 20.

II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

Matt. iii. 11; John i. 33; Matt. xxviii. 19, 20.

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person.

Heb. ix. 10, 19, 20, 21, 22; Acts ii. 41; Acts xvi. 33; Mark vii. 4.

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one or both believing parents, are to be baptized.

Mark xvi. 15, 16; Acts viii. 37, 38; Gen. xvii. 7, 9, 10 with Gal. iii. 9, 14 and Col. ii. 11, 12 and Acts ii. 38, 39 and Rom. iv. 11, 12; 1 Cor. vii. 14; Matt. xxviii. 19; Mark x. 13, 14, 15, 16; Luke xviii. 15.

V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

Luke vii. 30 with Exod. iv. 24, 25, 26; Rom. iv. 11; Acts x. 2, 4, 22, 31, 45, 47; Acts viii. 13, 23.

VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will in His appointed time.

John iii. 5, 8; Gal. iii. 27; Titus iii. 5; Eph. v. 25, 26; Acts ii. 38, 41.

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

Titus iii. 5.



CHAPTER XXIX

Of the Lord's Supper

Our Lord Jesus, in the night wherein He was betrayed, instituted the sacrament of His body and blood, called the Lord's Supper, to be observed in His Church, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance of the sacrifice of Himself in His death; the sealing all benefits thereof unto true believers, their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him, their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe unto Him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him, and with each other, as members of His mystical body.

1 Cor. xi. 23, 24, 25, 26; 1 Cor. x. 16, 17, 21; 1 Cor. xii. 13.

II. In this sacrament, Christ is not offered up to His Father; nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sins of the quick or dead; but only a commemoration of that one offering up of Himself, by Himself, upon the cross, once for all: and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same: so that the Popish sacrifice of the mass (as they call it) is most abominably injurious to Christ's one, only sacrifice, the alone propitiation for all the sins of His elect.

Heb. ix. 22, 25, 26, 28; 1 Cor. xi. 24, 25, 26; Matt. xxvi. 26, 27; Heb. vii. 23, 24, 27; Heb. x. 1l, 12, 14,18.

III. The Lord Jesus, hath, in this ordinance, appointed His ministers to declare His word of institution to the people; to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to a holy use; and to take and break the bread, to take the cup, and (they communicating also themselves) to give both to the communicants; but to none who are not then present in the congregation.

Matt. xxvi. 26, 27, 28 and Mark xiv. 22, 23, 24 and Luke xxii. 19, 20 with 1 Cor. xi. 23, 24, 25, 26; Acts xx. 7; 1 Cor. xi. 20.

IV. Private masses, or receiving this sacrament by a priest or any other alone; as likewise, the denial of the cup to the people, worshipping the elements, the lifting them up or carrying them about for adoration, and the reserving them for any pretended religious use; are all contrary to the nature of this sacrament, and to the institution of Christ.

1 Cor. x. 16; Mark xiv. 23; l Cor. xi. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29; Matt. xv. 9.

V. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to Him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ; albeit in substance and nature they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.

Matt. xxvi. 26, 27, 28; 1 Cor. xi. 26, 27, 28; Matt. xxvi. 29.

VI. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason; overthroweth the nature of the sacrament, and hath been, and is the cause of manifold superstitions; yea, of gross idolatries.

Acts iii. 21 with 1 Cor. xi. 24, 25, 26; Luke xxiv. 6, 39.

VII. Worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this sacrament, do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually, receive and feed upon Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

1 Cor. xi. 28; 1 Cor. x. 16.

VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament: yet they receive not the thing signified thereby, but by their unworthy coming thereunto are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto.

1 Cor. xi. 27, 28, 29; 2 Cor. vi. 14,15, 16; 1 Cor. v. 6, 7, 13; 2 Thess. iii. 6, 14, 15; Matt. vii. 6.


CHAPTER XXX

Of Church Censures

The Lord Jesus, as King and Head of His Church, hath therein appointed a government, in the hand of Church officers, distinct from the civil magistrate.

Isa. ix. 6, 7; 1 Tim. v. 17; 1 Thess. v. 12; Acts xx. 17, 28; Heb. xiii. 7, 17, 24; 1 Cor. xii. 28; Matt. xxviii. 18, 19, 20.

II. To these officers, the keys of the kingdom of heaven are committed: by virtue whereof, they have power respectively to retain, and remit sins; to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the Word and censures; and to open it unto penitent sinners, by the ministry of the Gospel, and by absolution from censures, as occasion shall require.

Matt. xvi. 19; Matt. xviii. 17, 18; John xx. 21, 22, 23; 2 Cor. ii. 6, 7, 8.

III. Church censures are necessary, for the reclaiming and gaining of offending brethren, for deterring of others from the like offences, for purging out of that leaven which might infect the whole lump, for vindicating the honour of Christ, and the holy profession of the Gospel, and for preventing the wrath of God, which might justly fall upon the Church, if they should suffer His covenant and the seals thereof to be profaned by notorious and obstinate offenders.

1 Cor. v. chap.; 1 Tim. v. 20; Matt. vii. 6; 1 Tim. i. 20; 1 Cor. xi. 27 to the end, with Jude ver. 23.

IV. For the better attaining of these ends, the officers of the Church are to proceed by admonition; suspension from the sacrament of the Lord's Supper for a season; and by excommunication from the Church; according to the nature of the crime, and demerit of the person.

1 Thess. v. 12; 2 Thess. iii. 6, 14, 15; 1 Cor. v. 4, 5, 13; Matt. xviii. 17; Tit. iii. 10.


CHAPTER XXXI

Of Synods and Councils

For the better government, and further edification of the Church, there ought to be such assemblies as are commonly called synods or councils.
Acts xv. 2, 4, 6.

II. (As magistrates may lawfully call a synod of ministers, and other fit persons, to consult and advise with, about matters of religion; so, if magistrates be open enemies to the Church, the ministers of Christ of themselves, by virtue of their office, or they, other fit persons, upon delegation from their Churches, may meet together in such assemblies.)*

Isa. xlix. 23; 1 Tim. ii. 1, 2; 2 Chron. xix. 8, 9, 10, 11; 2 Chron. xxix., xxx. chaps.; Matt. ii. 4, 5; Prov. xi. 14; Acts xv. 2, 4, 22, 23, 25.

III. It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith and cases of conscience, to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of His Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same: which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in His Word.

Acts xv. 15, 19, 24, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31; Acts xvi. 4; Matt. xviii. 17, 18, 19, 20.

IV. All synods or councils, since the Apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err; and many have erred. Therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith or practice; but to be used as a help in both.

Eph. ii. 20; Acts xvii. 11; 1 Cor. ii. 5; 2 Cor. i. 24.

V. Synods and councils are to handle, or conclude, nothing, but that which is ecclesiastical: and are not to intermeddle with civil affairs which concern the commonwealth; unless by way of humble petition, in cases extraordinary; or by way of advice, for satisfaction of conscience, if they be thereunto required by the civil magistrate.

Luke xii. 13, 14; John xviii. 36.
 
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How do you handle being taught?

Honestly, I've spent a great amount of time not being taught but evaluating my teachers to see if the things they say are true, and I usually go my own way because of that.

I'm trying a new angle of submitting to the teaching of my pastor and seeing where this goes. He is a PCA pastor, conservative, amillenial, WCF confessional, knows greek, has spent years in ministry and church planting, and I discern he is doing his best to teach the truth.

So, I am jettisoning credo baptism, premillenialism, and congregational church government, and embracing his views instead and I feel pretty good about that.

Of course I still check, but I see no reason to believe he doesn't check out as good.

How do you feel is the proper way to submit to a teaching elder's teaching authority?

This is sort of the approach I took with the late Dr. Cornelius Van Til, and I believe doing so has helped me greatly. I also sought out his critics to test and analyze, and in my estimation, their criticisms, all come up short, are found wanting. From what I've read about him, he was friends with Geerhardus Vos, and his friend had an influence on his thinking. I found in Van Til, an elder with whom I could not disagree (in areas he taught) , because I could not refute him nor could I find any significant criticism or refutation. Even the fruit of his efforts has been sweet, with such men as Greg Bahnsen, John M. Frame, Vern Poythress, and Francis Schaffer (though Dr. Schaffer somewhat parted ways with Van Til, the influence is there). I do not think Scott Oliphint studied directly under Van Til, and I have no idea about William Edgar. Of course there are others, but as we see, those before us were influenced by others, and anyone doing other than reading Scripture verbatim has no choice but to think/speak with influence of another, and so the important choices we have to make is whom will we allow ourselves to be influenced by?
 
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JM

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Its not easy to shift your theological positions and I encourage you brother Osage to take time to study and pray this out.

If you are convinced that paedobaptism is biblical that doesn't mean you have to be Amil as well. If you believe Amil is biblical that doesn't mean congregational church government is wrong.

Peace,

jm

 
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ObeyGODCommandments

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People should just simply read a bible and have the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth.

Obey and keep God's commandments. Also, follow Christ and Paul's example through the word of God.

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 
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AmericanSamurai

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People should just simply read a bible and have the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth.

Obey and keep God's commandments. Also, follow Christ and Paul's example through the word of God.

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. I have family that is trying to impose their WOF beliefs on me as the Gospel and it is important to know how to refute them.
 
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Its not easy to shift your theological positions and I encourage you brother Osage to take time to study and pray this out.

If you are convinced that paedobaptism is biblical that doesn't mean you have to be Amil as well. If you believe Amil is biblical that doesn't mean congregational church government is wrong.

Peace,

jm


:thumbsup: Well said brother, I sense your caring :)
 
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People should just simply read a bible and have the Holy Spirit guide them into all truth.

I wish it were that simple, I wish we could all just read the Bible and come to the same conclusions, it would make things so much easier, but evidently if we believe God is sovereign, if His will is being done, then that wish is not the way that God intended it to be. Evidently the Holy Spirit does not control us in a dictator manner. Ever hear the saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions"? I can imagine a young Joseph Smith with a similar approach to being led into truth, and look where it landed him! Had he humbled himself to the teachers and teachings before him, had he thought "maybe these men knew more than I do, and maybe I can learn from them", then maybe we wouldn't have to address the Mormon cult.

Allow me to present another problem:

Let's say person A and person B are both Christians. Now person A and B read a passage of Scripture. Person A comes to conclusion Y and claims the Holy Spirit led them to that conclusion. Person B comes to conclusion Z and also claims the Holy Spirit led them to that conclusion. Now we have two Christians, the Holy Spirit leading both, but both claim the Spirit led them to their conclusions, yet their conclusions do not agree, nor are they compatible, so which one is really led into the truth? We know the Holy Spirit does not lead to people to error, so where or how did the person who though they were led into truth, come to an erroneous conclusion? How will the person who thought they were led into the truth by the Spirit actually ever come to the truth?

Another isssue, does ALL really mean all, does all always mean all? Did the Holy Spirit lead us into the truth about reading, writing, typing, how to use a Windows operating system, how to navigate the internet, how to post on a messageboard? Did the Holy Spirit lead us into the truths of mathematics? Now these are kind of trick questions, because I certainly believe all truth is God's truth and mankind has never surprised God or one upped Him with a truly "original" thought. However, the point here is that the Bible, while it is the standard for truth, the foundation for truth, does not contain "all truth", and while the Spirit knows all truth, we are not controlled by the Spirit in such a manner that we cannot be led astray into error. This is why God has in every age throughout the ages faithfully given us teachers, elders, and leaders to help guide us, to shine light in those dark spots of our understanding, to help us grow in wisdom and understanding.


Obey and keep God's commandments. Also, follow Christ and Paul's example through the word of God.

And obedience comes by and through faith. Without a solid foundation, our faith, and obedience will shake and crumble to pieces. I used to buy into the simple "WWJD?" mentality. But you know what's wrong with it? You and I could never replace Jesus, we could never be like Him, for He is God in the flesh. He knew people's hearts and minds. He could perform miracles at any time of His choosing. We are more like the man who said "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!".
 
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