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"Behold your son"
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Albion said:
Why do you believe John was Jesus' brother? I have never heard anybody claim this before.
Why, if he was, did Jesus feel the need to conduct such an obvious piece of family business there on the cross, just moments from death? And why is it recorded in scripture? Note that Jesus didn't say something like "John, take care of your mother now." No, He said something that would be very strange to say to family members, "behold your son" and "behold your mother". Why would Jesus waste breath saying something so redundant and mysterious at the same time? And we are led to believe that it was those words that caused Mary to go and live in John's house from that moment on. It may be very convenient to believe John was Mary's son, but the words and actions just don't make sense from that perspective.
If John was not Jesus' brother (and I think this is by far the more widely-held belief), what possible right did Jesus have in giving her over to him, if Mary had other children?
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SumTinWong
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How does honoring Mary help us understand the beauty of what Jesus accomplished? NEVERMIND. I just saw the just kidding reference...Penumbra said:
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Albion
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FLMike said:
I don't see anything mysterious there. "Behold your son" is not the way we would say these things today, but from the Bible what is? Understanding that phrase to be the equivalent of "See how your mother/son needs you now" is no stretch at all. Seeing Jesus giving Mary to the whole human race by this simple phrase or of effecting some legal guardianship takes a lot of inventiveness and much more imagination! As for the timing of doing this on the cross, wouldn't placing people together who were already bonded by some degree of relationship be more understandable than effecting a legal guardianship with someone else in haste like you are thinking happened?
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blackwasp said:
If they didn't believe in His ministry, why in the world would they let Him give their own mother over to one of His followers, and a person who was not related to her? I can't imagine it.
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Albion said:
"Behold" has conotations of perceiving, comprehending. It is indeed, IMO, a stretch to suggest that Mary would have needed to be told to perceive or comprehend her son, and vice versa.
But you didn't answer what is probably the most important question, which is how do you know the beloved disciple was Jesus' brother, Mary's son? As I said, I've never heard anybody else claim this, and yet you seem to think it's obvious, or close to it.
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Albion
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FLMike said:
OK, but surely you can imagine this if John were a close follower of Jesus. First, we don't know that there was no relationship. Jesus may have had six siblings and many cousins referred to as brethren. Second, John was Jesus' favorite and as close to Him as any disciple, so it's completely within the realm of possibility.
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Albion said:
No, I really can't imagine this. Jesus has brothers who don't believe in His ministry, yet those same brothers are going to let their Mother go and live with a close follower of this very ministry they don't believe in? The very fact that John is a "close follower" of this ministry they don't believe in works against John, not for him. Whether John is a cousin or a non-relative, the brothers would never let their mother live with him. I'm sure that would have been the most heinous of insults. Imagine a Middle Eastern family today, if the oldest brother attempted to send his mother to live with non-family, when she still had other sons.
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Iollain
Jer 18:2-6
I'm sure Mary would not be living with non-believing Jews if she had other children that were non believers at the time of His death. If they were believers they would have listened to Jesus's request. "Jesus' brothers said to Him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." For even His own brothers did not believe in Him." (John 7:3-5)
John was brethern to Jesus:
Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
"Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene." (John 19:25 RSV)
"There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40 RSV)
Salome is John's mother.
So John was probably Mary's nephew.
John was brethern to Jesus:
Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
"Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene." (John 19:25 RSV)
"There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40 RSV)
Salome is John's mother.
So John was probably Mary's nephew.
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