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Beginning to Understand

GrinningDwarf

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I never could figure out how people could try to claim Charles Spurgeon as a non-Calvinist when his sermons are so clearly Reformed. I'm reading a short biography on him right now from the Heroes of the Faith series published by Barbour. It seems that London at the time was full of hyper-Calvinists, of the sort that told William Carry to "sit down, young man. If God wants to reach the heathens of Asia, He will do it without your help." Spurgeon, apparently, spoke a lot against that kind of Calvinist, so apparently his 'anti-Calvinist' pieces are taken entirely out of context and are actually anti-hyper-Calvinist.
 
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JM

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I could be mistaken, but that quote isn't even from a hyper-Calvinist, the man was a pre-Charismatic and the full quote also contains something along the lines of "because we're waiting for a second Pentecost."

jm
 
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GrinningDwarf

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I could be mistaken, but that quote isn't even from a hyper-Calvinist, the man was a pre-Charismatic and the full quote also contains something along the lines of "because we're waiting for a second Pentecost."

jm

??

The "sit down, young man" quote? Do you have reference for the entire quote? Where could I find it?
 
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GrinningDwarf

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Google Doctor John C. Ryland. Or just the quote, "sit down young man."

Swing and a miss.

The Ryland search gave me current listings of doctors and lawyers.

The "sit down young man" search gave me mostly folk song references.

Gotta go to work...don't have time to sort through the twenty other pages of hits.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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I found this on The Founders Blog:

"Yarnell also repeats the story that accuses John C. Ryland, Sr. of saying to William Carey, "Sit down, young man; when God wants to convert the heathen, He'll do it without your help or mine" (2). John Ryland, Jr., who was a close friend of Carey's, repudiates this story, saying, "I never heard of it till I saw it in print, and cannot give credit to it at all" (Life of Andrew Fuller, 1816 edition, p. 175; cited in I. Murray, The Puritan Hope, chapter 7, fn. 14, p. 280). No doubt that sentiment was present and even prevailed in certain sectors of 18th century English Particular Baptist life, but it is unfortunate to see Ryland, Sr. continuing to be accused of giving it voice."

In Christ,
Kenith
 
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AndOne

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"Yarnell also repeats the story that accuses John C. Ryland, Sr. of saying to William Carey, "Sit down, young man; when God wants to convert the heathen, He'll do it without your help or mine" (2). John Ryland, Jr., who was a close friend of Carey's, repudiates this story, saying, "I never heard of it till I saw it in print, and cannot give credit to it at all" (Life of Andrew Fuller, 1816 edition, p. 175; cited in I. Murray, The Puritan Hope, chapter 7, fn. 14, p. 280). No doubt that sentiment was present and even prevailed in certain sectors of 18th century English Particular Baptist life, but it is unfortunate to see Ryland, Sr. continuing to be accused of giving it voice."

In Christ,
Kenith

That's too bad - when I ran the search on Yahoo the quote is all over the place. The poor guy seems to be well known as a hyper-calvinist in our day and age. I'm glad to see the Founders blog set the record straight!
 
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AndOne

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Yeah...thanks for clearing that up!

Anyway....it was apparently that type of Calvinist who Spurgeon was repudiating.

Its funny because I've run across quite a few Baptists of the "Armenian" persuassion who automatically think that ALL Calvinists do not believe in preaching the gospel to unbelievers.

Having just moved here recently we had visited a Southern Baptist church and when I asked the elders if they were reformed in their sotorieology the response was that they absolutely were not - "and for one thing we believe in preaching the gospel to the lost."

They were quite surprised when I told them that I was a Calvinist and also believed in preaching to the lost. In fact it sort of blew their impression of Calvinists out of the water.

Its quite possible that all one thinks when they hear "Calvinist" or "Reformed" is that they do not preach the gospel - which is probably how Spurgeon often gets lumped into the "non-Calvinist" category. Folks who do that just don't understand what true Calvinism is all about...
 
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Rick Otto

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Not just to be contentious,... I'm a little obsessive with language. "out of the water" might be more accuately "out of the mire". lol

I cringe around people who are satisfied with what one guy (their preacher)says to be "the facts", and parrot that smugly.

And to consider anyone who in light of predestination, would curb their evangelistic response "hyper"...:doh: !

"Catatonic Calvinist" would be more apt, IMHO.^_^
 
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cygnusx1

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Sorry about that. The ones I found all accredited the quote to John Ryland, but didn't have any further words to the quote. Also, one pdf I found said his son says he never said such a thing.


That is right it is credited to John Ryland , but some have said it is apocryphal , and has no historic proof behind it.

Whatever the case may be , William Carey and Andrew Fuller set up the missionary society through the Calvinst Baptists in Kettering , Northants , the town where John Gill was preacher .
 
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JM

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I forgot I have the complete works of Andrew Fuller on CDRom :scratch: so I pulled it out and did a search for John Ryland. This is the only hit.

“In 1776 I became acquainted with Mr. Sutcliff, who had lately come to Olney, and soon after with Mr. John Ryland, jun., then of Northampton. In. them I found familiar and faithful brethren; and who partly by reflection, and partly by reading the writings of Edwards, Bellamy, Brainerd, &c., had begun to doubt of the system of false Calvinism to which they had been inclined when they first entered on the ministry, or rather to be decided against it. But as I lived sixty or seventy miles from them, I seldom saw them, and did not correspond upon the subject. I therefore pursued my inquiries by myself, and wrote out the substance of what I afterwards published under the title of The Gospel worthy of all Acceptation; or the Obligations of Men cordially to believe whatever God makes known.
My change of views on these subjects never abated my zeal for the doctrine of salvation by grace, but in some respects increased it. I never had any predilection for Arminianism, which appeared to me to ascribe the difference between one sinner and another, not to the grace of God, but to the good improvement made of grace given us in common with others. Yet I saw those whom I thought to be godly men, both among Arminians and high, or, as I now accounted them, hyper Calvinists. I perceived that men’s characters were not always formed by their avowed principles; that we may hold a sound faith without its having such hold of us as to form our spirit and conduct; that we may profess an erroneous creed, and yet our spirit and conduct may be formed nearly irrespective of it; in short, that there is a difference between principles and opinions; the one are the actual moving causes which lie at the root of
action, the other often float in the mind without being reduced to practice.”

On the important and responsible work of the ministry Mr. Fuller entered with that humility and devotedness which it demands, and which the peculiar exigences of the people among whom he laboured
called for in no ordinary degree.

Though his acceptance of the pastorate added somewhat to the pressure of those theological difficulties by which his early engagements were embarrassed, as giving to them more of a practical aspect, it had nevertheless a favourable influence on their solution, as prompting him to more vigorous efforts of thought, a more rigid examination of the word of God, and more strenuous applications at a throne of grace, and
also bringing him into contact with eminent individuals who, like himself, were accustomed to pursue inquiries with a view to a practical purpose, and whose means of information had been more extensive than his own. Owing however to the distance of their residence from his, as well as to the independence of his own mind, they might be said to have done little more than give an impetus to his thoughts, of which they were afterwards happy in acknowledging the benefit.

Among the investigations which occupied his attention at this period, that on the subject of justification was not the least important. The following record of the progress of his mind on this topic, written in 1796, nay not be uninteresting: “When I first set out in the ministry I had no other ideas of justification than those which are stated by Dr. Gill. ‘Justification,’ he says, ‘may be distinguished into active and passive. Active justification is the act of God. It is God that justifieth, Passive justification is the act of God terminating on the conscience of a believer, commonly called a transient act passing upon an external object. The former is an act internal and eternal, taken up in the Divine mind from eternity, and is an immanent, abiding one in it. It is, as Dr. Ames expresses it, a sentence conceived in the Divine mind by the decree of justifying.’ “In his Body of Divinity, vol. ii. p. 797, the Doctor speaks of justification as it ‘terminates in the conscience of a believer, and which (he says) the Scriptures style justification by faith.’

I quoted a few sections after Ryland's name, it's the first time I've had use for the info on the CD, :doh:

If anyone wants me to search for something else on this CDRom just let me know.

peace,

jm
 
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JM

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For many years Andrew Fuller’s material was out of print. Through God’s providence that this compiler “accidentally” discovered a cover-less, well-worn, 175-year-old copy in a used book store in Calgary, Canada. It was such a joy to him, that he became sure that others would be blessed by reading this work. A hard copy of The Complete Works of the Rev. Andrew Fuller has been offered to the public since this copy was found, but its prohibitive cost has kept Fuller out of most personal libraries.

[SIZE=-1]Our pastor has made available on CD the great commentary of [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]B.H. Carroll, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]"An Interpretation of the English Bible." If you would be interested in receiving an inexpensive copy, just [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]e-mail Brother Oldfield[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"The Complete Works of Andrew Fuller"[/SIZE][SIZE=-2]i[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]s
Fuller.jpg
now available on a computer CD. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Andrew Fuller [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]was the driving force behind the modern missionary movement among the Baptists and the man "who held the rope" for missionary William Carey. This CD contains a biography of Fuller's life and all the important writings of this throught-provoking pastor and theologian. It is a must for every serious Baptist theologian whether you agree with him or not. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]E-mail Brother Oldfield [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to order your copy.[/SIZE]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but I've been searching and reading thru this CD Rom, and wanted to share. I ordered mine from Br. Olfield along with the B. H. Carroll CD Rom.

Peace,

jm
 
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