Before the Flood.

[Melethiel]

Nobody seems to be talking about your question anymore so I'll give it a go.

Some people have put together a very convincing argument that before the flood the oxygen level was richer. This has some support with the scripture - ie the canopy theory, and is not negated. Note that this is not proof, and nobody suggests it is. but obviously scripture needs to support any possible theory or speculation.

Science proves that richer oxygen levels aid growth - look at what hyperbaric chambers can do. Vegetables grow large, sportsman use it to recover from injuries and so on.

Remember what genesis also said - "there were giants on the earth"

Now I understand (but have not seen evidence personally) that Dinosaurs had very small lungs for their size. If post flood the oxygen was lower, that made it difficult for them to survive.

Eating of meat, a supernatural influence all might have something to do with it to. We wont ever know but it is a fun topic to research.

It is NOT as simple as "oxygen aids growth". Oxygen, in fact, is quite toxic and too much of it will kill you. The reason oxygen is used in medicine is the gradient - if the body is not absorbing enough oxygen due to medical reasons, basic chemistry dictates that a higher concentration of oxygen will cause that person to absorb the right amount. So, a person with, say, chronic emphysema will benefit from being on oxygen, but a healthy person will not. (This is very simplistic, but hey, I haven't taken physiology yet...this is just what I gleaned from my biochem classes.)

With plants it's different because plants have a different biochemistry.

 

[Merlin]

Nobody seems to be talking about your question anymore so I'll give it a go.

Some people have put together a very convincing argument that before the flood the oxygen level was richer. This has some support with the scripture - ie the canopy theory, and is not negated. Note that this is not proof, and nobody suggests it is. but obviously scripture needs to support any possible theory or speculation.

Science proves that richer oxygen levels aid growth - look at what hyperbaric chambers can do. Vegetables grow large, sportsman use it to recover from injuries and so on.

Remember what genesis also said - "there were giants on the earth"

Now I understand (but have not seen evidence personally) that Dinosaurs had very small lungs for their size. If post flood the oxygen was lower, that made it difficult for them to survive.

Eating of meat, a supernatural influence all might have something to do with it to. We wont ever know but it is a fun topic to research.

more likely that the higher oxygen levels would kill off the bacteria.

 

[marktheblake]

It is NOT as simple as "oxygen aids growth".

I know, I have barely touched on the subject, mainly cos i dont remember everything. But its an interesting research topic

Oxygen, in fact, is quite toxic and too much of it will kill you

.

I think the figure quoted was about 20% more. But there is a lot more to it than just oxygen, its all interwined with the whole canopy, ice age, flood, continents - all interesting stuff.

 

[marktheblake]

You should probably watch these informative videos:

thanks but I never understood the point of a forum discussion if everybody would just posts links and videos? all we would need is google.

I cant access Youtube, so if you wanna tell me something, just go straight out and say it.

 

[Mallon]

I cant access Youtube, so if you wanna tell me something, just go straight out and say it.

Okie doke. Canopy theory is an absolutely ludicrous idea that is completely unfeasible.

 

[shernren]

An important issue would be how much more combustible everything would be in an atmosphere of much more concentrated oxygen.

 

[marktheblake]

Okie doke. Canopy theory is an absolutely ludicrous idea that is completely unfeasible.

do you mean just like evolution?

 

[shernren]

Yeah, kinda like evolution minus 150 years of being explained by some of the best minds of humanity and mountains of evidence as well as fruitful impact on research in every field from antibiotics to zucchini. The similarities are so striking you wouldn't believe it.

(One cheap shot deserves another. )

 

[Mallon]

do you mean just like evolution?

Nope. That's why 99% of scientists subscribe to evolution, and none subscribe to canopy theory.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

In the bible it says that people lived to be "hundreds" years old... What made people live that long then but not now... I know that the flood came and God told him that no one would live longer then hundred something. What all changed?

Corruption caused by sin keeps working in Adam since the fall, and we are slowly but surely devolving.
And at the flood, God did not shorten the years of Adamkind. The comment He made about the 120 years was the time Noah and Methusaleh preached righteousness and repentance before the flood came.
The fuller story of that 120 years of preaching righteous to Adamkind in the hopes they would repent is in the Book of Jasher, chapters 4-7; @ this link http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

Man's days were shortened by God in the days of yoktan, son of Eber, a great, great grandson of Shem, and that corresponds to the rebellion after the flood by Nimrod & Co, and the judgment of Adamkind at the Tower of Babel.

Jasher chapter 7: 20,21; These are the generations of Shem; Shem begat Arpachshad and Arpachshad begat Shelach, and Shelach begat Eber and to Eber were born two children, the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the sons of men were divided, and in the latter days, the earth was divided.
And the name of the second was Yoktan, meaning that in his day the lives of the sons of men were diminished and lessened.
Later, a Psalm attributed to Moses states that the days of man are threescore years and ten, and so on, by reason of stength, but that is odd to attriute that to Moses, as no one in Moses' day lived that short of a life, except as a punishment from God.

God's Word teaches that in the Millennial reign, those who are the Sheep Gentiles and the redeemed "elect" Jews who remain alive through the tribulation [after the Church is raptured which comes at the beginning], and who then enter into the millennial reign as the "Blessed of YHWH", will not die in the entire thousand year Sabbath of Peace for this earth; and then they will be translated to the glorified immortal body at the end of that Sabbath Rest of a thousand years.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Okie doke. Canopy theory is an absolutely ludicrous idea that is completely unfeasible.

But God's Word says:
1.

[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#comm/6"]Gen 1:6

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear/be seen: and it was so.

[/URL]


2

[URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#comm/14"]Gen 1:14

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

[/URL]

The firmament called heaven is that same firmament in which Elohym set the sun and the moon and the stars, on day four.

Enoch 53:7 And in those days shall punishment come from the Lord of Spirits, and he will open all the chambers of waters which are above the heavens, and of the fountains which are beneath the earth. 8 And all the waters shall be joined with the waters: that which is above the heavens is the masculine, 9 and the water which is beneath the earth is the feminine. And they shall destroy all who dwell 10 on the earth and those who dwell under the ends of the heaven. And when they have recognized their unrighteousness which they have wrought on the earth, then by these shall they perish.

Enoch 89: And again I raised mine eyes towards heaven and saw a lofty roof, with seven water torrents thereon, and those torrents 3 flowed with much water into an enclosure. And I saw again, and behold fountains were opened on the surface of that great enclosure, and that water began to swell and rise upon the surface, 4 and I saw that enclosure till all its surface was covered with water. And the water, the darkness, and mist increased upon it; and as I looked at the height of that water, that water had risen above the height of that enclosure, and was streaming over that enclosure, and it stood upon the earth....

And again I saw in the vision till those water torrents were removed from that high roof, and the chasms 8 of the earth were leveled up and other abysses were opened. Then the water began to run down into these, till the earth became visible; but that vessel settled on the earth, and the darkness 9 retired and light appeared.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Two major things:

1. The climate changed from tropical to polar.
2. Health decreased as a result of the Fall.

To gain better understanding of earth before the flood it is actually good to read the books of 1 Enoch and the Book of Jasher; both of which correlate with Moses' accounts.
Moses wrote most of Jasher [which is stated in Jasher], using the writings of the patriarchs, and he just redacted the information more, for the record he wrote which is called Genesis.

Genesis 8:20-22
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

1 Enoch
[Chapter 2]
1 Observe ye everything that takes place in the heaven, how they do not change their orbits, and the luminaries which are in the heaven, how they all rise and set in order each in its season, and 2 transgress not against their appointed order. Behold ye the earth, and give heed to the things which take place upon it from first to last, how steadfast they are, how none of the things upon earth 3 change, but all the works of God appear to you. Behold the summer and the winter, how the whole earth is filled with water, and clouds and dew and rain lie upon it.
[Chapter 3]
Observe and see how (in the winter) all the trees seem as though they had withered and shed all their leaves, except fourteen trees, which do not lose their foliage but retain the old foliage from two to three years till the new comes.
[Chapter 4]
And again, observe ye the days of summer how the sun is above the earth over against it. And you seek shade and shelter by reason of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with growing heat, and so you cannot tread on the earth, or on a rock by reason of its heat.
[Chapter 5]
1 Observe ye how the trees cover themselves with green leaves and bear fruit: wherefore give ye heed and know with regard to all His works, and recognize how He that liveth for ever hath made them so. 2 And all His works go on thus from year to year for ever, and all the tasks which they accomplish for Him, and their tasks change not, but according as God hath ordained so is it done. 3 And behold how the sea and the rivers in like manner accomplish and change not their tasks from His commandments'.
4 But ye -ye have not been steadfast, nor done the commandments of the Lord,
But ye have turned away and spoken proud and hard words
With your impure mouths against His greatness.

There have always been four seasons on earth, from the beginning; and the ice ages did come after the flood [I'm not sure they're over yet] but before the flood there was rain, frost, snow, and hail, in their seasons and places.
The mountains rose higher after the flood, apparently, and the land was one mass, until after Babel and the confounding of the mother tongue; which both were done to separate men into divisions , so that they would not unite so easily in wickedness [with each other and with rebel angels], and try to destroy God's plan for the redemption of this earth and the salvation of the seed of Adam -which seed are all individually ' written in the Book of Life to come forth in their pre-ordained season of time and to also have the opportunity to freely choose to seek God, and be redeemed by His pre-ordained Atonement for all Adamkind.
All these things are not hidden when one has those books to read along with the OT and NT. Without the books one is missing information and it's like trying to put a puzzle picture together without taking all the pieces for it out of the box.

 

[Mallon]

But God's Word says:

Nothing in Genesis remotely hints at canopy theory as described by YECs, regardless of what they say "God's Word says". If you want a good exegesis of what the Hebrew usage of "firmament" actually means, check out the following article by theologian Denis Lamoureux:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2008/PSCF3-08Lamoureux.pdf

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Nothing in Genesis remotely hints at canopy theory as described by YECs, regardless of what they say "God's Word says". If you want a good exegesis of what the Hebrew usage of "firmament" actually means, check out the following article by theologian Denis Lamoureux:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2008/PSCF3-08Lamoureux.pdf

"Theologians" rejected Jesus and had Him crucified as an imposter.
Give me Isaac Mozeson if I need to clear up a difficulty, but do not give me a theologian -they have left an odour unpleasant in the world -they stink!

I already know what God's Word says about a firmament. There is no difficulty.
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
a) expanse (flat as base, support)
b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above

firmament is from the word raqa`1) to beat, stamp, beat out, spread out, stretch

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament/expanse, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,


Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open/face firmament of heaven.


Enoch’s visit to the created temple which is set in the created sun in the heaven/firmament:
1 Enoch 14
Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in 9 the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven.
And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright 10 me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was 11 of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were 12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its 13 portals blazed with fire.
And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there 14 were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me. And as I quaked 15 and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater 16 than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to 17 you its splendour and its extent.

And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path 18 of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 cherubim.
And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20 thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and 21 was whiter than any snow.
None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason 22 of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him.
The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times 23 ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were 24 nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: ' Come hither, 25 Enoch, and hear my word.' And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.

From Mozeson's dictionary, The Word, on the root etymons for "firmament"

RACK RaQeeYGHah Resh-Koof-Ayin
... RaQ[A]h is to stretch (Isaiah 42:25). In Isaiah, as in Genesis 1:6, we have the Lord stretching out the RaQeeYGHah (firmament, heaven - the RACK or framework of the world).