Before the Flood.

[Golden_Cross]

In the bible it says that people lived to be "hundreds" years old... What made people live that long then but not now... I know that the flood came and God told him that no one would live longer then hundred something. What all changed?

 

[AV1611VET]

In the bible it says that people lived to be "hundreds" years old... What made people live that long then but not now... I know that the flood came and God told him that no one would live longer then hundred something. What all changed?

Two major things:

1. The climate changed from tropical to polar.
2. Health decreased as a result of the Fall.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

In the bible it says that people lived to be "hundreds" years old... What made people live that long then but not now... I know that the flood came and God told him that no one would live longer then hundred something. What all changed?

The ages are highly symbolic. In many ancient Near Eastern civilizations (the surrounding cultures like Egypt and Sumer) respected individuals were said to have lived extremely long life. The longer the life-span, the more important the person.

It is important to note that this does not mean that the Bible is lying. It is a cultural thing that is often missed by modern readers. when you see a long life span you should not think that the Bible is saying that they lived that long, it is saying "hey, this person that 'lived' for X years was really really important! We really like that person!" The original readers and writers never would have thought that people would ever think that these numbers were their literal ages.

 

[AV1611VET]

The ages are highly symbolic. In many ancient Near Eastern civilizations (the surrounding cultures like Egypt and Sumer) respected individuals were said to have lived extremely long life. The longer the life-span, the more important the person.

It is important to note that this does not mean that the Bible is lying. It is a cultural thing that is often missed by modern readers. when you see a long life span you should not think that the Bible is saying that they lived that long, it is saying "hey, this person that 'lived' for X years was really really important! We really like that person!" The original readers and writers never would have thought that people would ever think that these numbers were their literal ages.

Hmmm --- the devil must be "really liked!" then.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Hmmm --- the devil must be "really liked!" then.

What? No where does it give a numerical age of the devil. This only applies to numerical ages as is implied in my original post.

 

[AV1611VET]

What? No where does it give a numerical age of the devil.

Ya --- he's probably only, what? 10 or 15 years old?

This only applies to numerical ages as is implied in my original post.

If I remember right, your original post said something about other nations using lengthy years for as a method for honoring their heroes or something? So I take it you think God's chosen ones did the same thing?

 

[Mallon]

Hmmm --- the devil must be "really liked!" then.

The devil is not human.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Ya --- he's probably only, what? 10 or 15 years old?

Again, I am talking about when the Bible says "so-in-so was X years when he died" This never happens with the Devil (unless someone knows something I don't, I don't believe he ever died.)

If I remember right, your original post said something about other nations using lengthy years for as a method for honoring their heroes or something? So I take it you think God's chosen ones did the same thing?

Of course they did. Just like they used other ideas that were common in the Ancient Near East. Anyone who says different has obviously never read other texts from the same time. I am not saying that they copied from other cultures (for instance, I am not claiming that Genesis 1 or 2 is based off of the Enuma Elish). But it is clear that the Hebrews use similar conventions as their neighbors.

This is obvious in things like, the language (I am talking mainly the Aramaic portions because not much was written in Hebrew besides the OT), the court practices which are extremely similar to other nation's courts, the construction of the Temple (with the Holy, and the Holy of Holies which is very similar to other temples).

I am not saying that this makes the Bible or the things described therein any less special. But they are similar. Take the similarities of the Temple to the other temples (notice the capitalization). God chose to do this so that the Hebrew people would be able to understand his power. He set his Temple up so that they could relate it to the cultures that they knew.

Likewise, with the ages, the Bible uses the same conventions as other Ancient Near Eastern texts because those are the conventions that the Hebrew people would have understood. I am not saying that we don't take the text literally, I am saying that we should take it literally in regards to how and where it was written. It literally means that people who are claimed to have lived for unnaturally long times are very important.

There are numerous cases in Egypt, for instance, where a ruler is stated to have lived for hundreds of years long. However, we know from the grain records that they meticulously kept that the person lived a much shorter life. Say 40-60 years. Now why the discrepancy in the record written by the same people? Because one age is symbolic just like the ages of the pre-flood individuals. The numbers symbolize their importance.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am not saying that this makes the Bible or the things described therein any less special. But they are similar. Take the similarities of the Temple to the other temples (notice the capitalization). God chose to do this so that the Hebrew people would be able to understand his power. He set his Temple up so that they could relate it to the cultures that they knew.

Are you familiar with what's called Diabolical Mimicry or Diabolical Plagiarism?

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Are you familiar with what's called Diabolical Mimicry or Diabolical Plagiarism?

Vaguely, but isn't that usually an anti-catholic argument linking their beliefs to paganism? (this is not something I agree with by the way)

The only way I can link it to the conversation would be if you are trying to say that the Bible was influenced by demonic forces to mimic other cultures and I am sure you are not saying that.

 

[AV1611VET]

Vaguely, but isn't that usually an anti-catholic argument linking their beliefs to paganism? (this is not something I agree with by the way)

The only way I can link it to the conversation would be if you are trying to say that the Bible was influenced by demonic forces to mimic other cultures and I am sure you are not saying that.

What I'm saying is that for everything God has, Satan has a cheap imitation. If he can't get you to put on the breaks, he gets you to step on the gas.

Viewing the Bible as "one among many" is erroneous. It must be given preeminence, or one won't get a proper perspective of what happened back then.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Viewing the Bible as "one among many" is erroneous. It must be given preeminence, or one won't get a proper perspective of what happened back then.

I am giving it preeminence, but I am also recognizing that to understand it properly it is necessary to look at other texts that were written around the same time in similar cultures. You and I are not the direct audience of the Old Testament, the ancient Hebrews and later the Jews are the direct audience. In order to understand it, we need to think like they did. And they thought like a person living in the Ancient Near East.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am giving it preeminence, but I am also recognizing that to understand it properly it is necessary to look at other texts that were written around the same time in similar cultures. You and I are not the direct audience of the Old Testament, the ancient Hebrews and later the Jews are the direct audience. In order to understand it, we need to think like they did. And they thought like a person living in the Ancient Near East.

Do you know what VERBAL PLENARY INSPIRATION is? And if so, do you believe in it?

 

[Assyrian]

There is an interesting perspective on this question in Psalm 90:10 The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away. The Psalm is an exposition of Genesis yet it tell us people only live to seventy or eighty. It is not as if it was written long after lifespans had come down to normal and it is talking about lifespans when it was written rather than back in the Genesis. The Psalm is attributed to Moses, one of the Old Testament figures given a long lifespan. He comes at the end of the long lived patriarchs with a attributed lifespan of 120 years. Deut 34:7 Moses was 120 years old when he died. His eye was undimmed, and his vigor unabated.

Psalm 90:1 A Prayer of Moses, the man of God... 10 The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away.

If we take Moses as a commentator to learn how to interpet Genesis with its long lifespans, then they are not meant to be taken literally, and even if Moses lived to a vigorous old age he would not live more than eighty.

Hey AV, maybe the Patriarchs ages are just embedded.

 

[AV1611VET]

If we take Moses as a commentator to learn how to interpet Genesis with its long lifespans, then they are not meant to be taken literally, and even if Moses lived to a vigorous old age he would not live more than eighty.

Hey AV, maybe the Patriarchs ages are just embedded.

Who would be more qualified to say that the average life span has dropped to 80 --- someone who lived to be 75, or someone who lived to be 1,365,360,472,899,566 years old?

(Please answer this, it's a serious question.)

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Do you know what VERBAL PLENARY INSPIRATION is? And if so, do you believe in it?

Yes, I am very familiar with this particular theory and I find no biblical evidence or logical or philosophical reasons to believe it. If you think that verbal plenary inspiration is the only way to have respect for the Bible then there really is no common ground on which we can talk. You are certainly welcome to believe this, but you must understand that I can have immense respect for the Bible without thinking that He dictated it word for word to those that wrote it down.

Although, even working under the assumption of verbal plenary inspiration, my arguments above still stand. God was accommodating to his people. They think about the world like people would in the ancient world, where numbers are symbolic, not literal.

If we take Moses as a commentator to learn how to interpet Genesis with its long lifespans, then they are not meant to be taken literally, and even if Moses lived to a vigorous old age he would not live more than eighty.

This is not unlike my example of the Egyptian pharaohs having long ages attributed to them in one document and then a more reasonable age attributed to them in the harvest reports.

Who would be more qualified to say that the average life span has dropped to 80 --- someone who lived to be 75, or someone who lived to be 1,365,360,472,899,566 years old?

But the Psalm is not saying that the average lifespan dropped to 80, it is saying that the average lifespan is 80 (or actually it is saying 70-80)

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, I am very familiar with this particular theory ... I can have immense respect for the Bible without thinking that He dictated it word for word to those that wrote it down.

I said VERBAL PLENARY INSPIRATION, not MECHANICAL DICTATION.

 

[Mallon]

Amazing that some will admit that the God-inspired geocentric passages of the Bible were written from a human, earthly perspective, but suggest for a minute that the Hebrews also wrote from the perspective of a people rooted in ancient Near Eastern culture, and suddenly your esteem for God's influence is called into question.

 

[AV1611VET]

Amazing that some will admit that the God-inspired geocentric passages of the Bible were written from a human, earthly perspective, but suggest for a minute that the Hebrews also wrote from the perspective of a people rooted in ancient Near Eastern culture, and suddenly your esteem for God's influence is called into question.

I like this description:

"Verbal Plenary Inspiration" means "God the Holy Spirit so supernaturally directed the human writers of Scripture that, without waiving their intelligence, their individuality, their personal feelings, their literary style, or any other human factor of expression, His Complete and Coherent Message to mankind was recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of Scripture: the very words bearing the Authority of Divine Authorship."

SOURCE

 

[Assyrian]

Hmmm --- the devil must be "really liked!" then.

Who would be more qualified to say that the average life span has dropped to 80 --- someone who lived to be 75, or someone who lived to be 1,365,360,472,899,566 years old?

(Please answer this, it's a serious question.)

Who are you talking about living to 1,365,360,472,899,566 year old? The devil? I wouldn't trust him no matter how old you think he is.