Before the Flood

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I've been informed that Theistic Creationists arn't allowed on the other Creationist forum, so I'm copying my new thread over here if that's ok..
this is what I wrote..

Before the Flood.

Hi, my name's cosmicgoldfish and I'd like to start a new thread.. Before the Flood.
My opinion is currently of the old-earth day-age creationist, but I'm swayed by young-earth creationism as well.. (I do not believe there has been any evolution). I do not want this thread to be a shouting match between evolutionists and creationists, but rather a forum for discussing things that have interested me (and hopefully you also) for many years..
I am starting here with my own world-view that somehow, there probably was a global flood, (although this can be hard to defend).
My interested is what it was like before the flood, are any present day ruins evidence of a pre-flood civilization? Are there any records of pre-flood kings? Is there anything out there extra-biblical about the giants for instance? and what about the Vedas? What about the vapour canopy? Also interested in the Adam Dilemma, are human origins in Armenia or Africa? Genetic evidence points to an African origin.
I want to try and begin an discussion, rather than just arguments on specific points. Although I welcome evolutionists if that can maintain balance in the discussion.
I have been watching of late a few lectures by young-earthers, and they have some very good facts lined up.
But personally I prefer an old-earth scenario.
I have read a number of books on this subject, but I am now struggling to find new material. If we could keep it before the flood? Assuming there was a flood..

 

[Mallon]

Don't think I can help you, given that there is no good evidence for a global flood. And if there's no evidence for a global flood, then there's no way we can make educated statements about events relative to it.

 

[Paul365]

As far as I've heard, there is some new evidence for the Flood. It happened about 8000 years ago in the Black Sea area and flooded 60,000 square miles of land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

 

[Mallon]

There is certainly evidence for a flood in and around the Black Sea area several thousand years ago. But there is definitely no evidence for a global flood at any point in history.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

As far as I've heard, there is some new evidence for the Flood. It happened about 8000 years ago in the Black Sea area and flooded 60,000 square miles of land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

I've read that book about the black sea flood, it was good, but I don't think it was the flood. I saw a lecture recently by a creationist, talking about (sorry I'm not a geologist) a ridge of hills with a channel cut through it, it's like a levy, when the water finds a weak point in the levy it then just sweeps the rest away, causing a channel cut through the ridge, instead of the explanation that a river cut through it, why did the river not go around?
I thought it was a good point.

 

[juvenissun]

I've been informed that Theistic Creationists arn't allowed on the other Creationist forum, so I'm copying my new thread over here if that's ok..
this is what I wrote..

Before the Flood.

Hi, my name's cosmicgoldfish and I'd like to start a new thread.. Before the Flood.
My opinion is currently of the old-earth day-age creationist, but I'm swayed by young-earth creationism as well.. (I do not believe there has been any evolution). I do not want this thread to be a shouting match between evolutionists and creationists, but rather a forum for discussing things that have interested me (and hopefully you also) for many years..
I am starting here with my own world-view that somehow, there probably was a global flood, (although this can be hard to defend).
My interested is what it was like before the flood, are any present day ruins evidence of a pre-flood civilization? Are there any records of pre-flood kings? Is there anything out there extra-biblical about the giants for instance? and what about the Vedas? What about the vapour canopy? Also interested in the Adam Dilemma, are human origins in Armenia or Africa? Genetic evidence points to an African origin.
I want to try and begin an discussion, rather than just arguments on specific points. Although I welcome evolutionists if that can maintain balance in the discussion.
I have been watching of late a few lectures by young-earthers, and they have some very good facts lined up.
But personally I prefer an old-earth scenario.
I have read a number of books on this subject, but I am now struggling to find new material. If we could keep it before the flood? Assuming there was a flood..

You are asking too many questions. I would only address one of it, which is the vapor canopy.

Vapor canopy is not new. Venus and Mars had it before. God did not make them into earth-like planets by giving them a global flood like the earth had.

So, the earth did have a vapor canopy. We still have it now, but is a much diluted one. The amount of water allowed in the air is proportional to the temperature of the air. If we had a warmer earth, then we have more moisture in the air.

Unfortunately, we do not know what made the earth rain (40 days, global), which did not make the Venus rain. It is God's gift. Without a global flood, we will not be here.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I only ask questions in the rhetorical sense, to generate discussion.

 

[Mallon]

The physical impossibility of a vapor canopy has been demonstrated time and again.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH401.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology#Vapor_canopy

Of course, none of this would be a problem if we were reading our Bibles from an accomodationalist perspective. Denis Lamoureux does a good job of explaining why the vapor canopy isn't even biblical here: http://www.drvinson.net/theo/185-DSY/version/default/part/AttachmentData/data/Lamoureux.%20Lessons%20from%20the%20Heavens.%20On%20Scripture,%20Science%20and%20Inerrancy.%20PSCF.%20March%202008.pdf

To quote:

The Bible also affirms the ancient astronomical concept
of a heavenly body of water.11 On the second day of
creation, the Creator makes solid raqîa‘ and lifts the
“waters above.” Psalm 104:2–3 states that “God stretches
out the heavens like a tent and lays the beams of his upper
chambers on their waters.” In calling forth praise from the
physical realities of the sun, moon, and stars, Ps. 148:4
appeals to the heavenly sea, another real astronomical
structure according to the ancient writer: “Praise the Lord
you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.”
And Jer. 10:12–13 claims, “God stretches out the heavens
by his understanding. When he thunders, the waters in the
heavens roar.”12 Notably, these last three passages appear​

after

Noah’s flood. In other words, the collapse of a preflood

canopy as proposed by young earth creation betrays
the biblical evidence since the “waters above” remain
intact in the heavens. For that matter, the firmament
holding up the heavenly waters is still there in David’s day
as revealed in the beloved nineteenth psalm: “The heavens
declare the glory of God and the raqîa‘ proclaims the work
of his hands” (cf. Ps. 150:1). Moreover, attempts to argue
that the water referred to in these passages is water vapor
fail to acknowledge that Hebrew has the words, ’ed, nasî’
and ​

​

‘anan which carry meanings of “mist,” “vapor,” and

“cloud” (Gen. 2:6, 9:14; Job 36:27; Ps. 135:7), and the inspired
writers did not use them. In particular, the common noun
mayim ​

​

appears five times on the second creation day and

it is always translated as “water/s” in English Bibles.​

​

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We confuse what the 'firmament' above the earth really is because we compare its 'firmness' to water or to solid earth. By comparison it is hardly 'firm'. But contrast earth's atmosphere to space and you have a very firm 'firmament'. So firm that returning spacecraft must enter at an optimal angle to avoid bouncing off and going out into space. 'Terminal velocity' also attests to the firmness of the firmament above. Because it is so 'firm' birds and airplanes can 'swim' through it.

Water, in it's gaseous form is the largest constituent of this firmament. It's importance in regulating earth's temperature cannot be overstated.

The 'forty days and nights of rain' may have been caused by volcanic activity occuring around the oceans that would have put huge amounts of vapor into the atmosphere. The accompanying dust would be sufficient for raindrops to continuously form and fall on the earth. At the end of forty days the volcanic activity may have been quenched by rising seawater and the rain stopped.

owg

 

[MrSnow]

I've been informed that Theistic Creationists arn't allowed on the other Creationist forum, so I'm copying my new thread over here if that's ok..
this is what I wrote..

Before the Flood.

Hi, my name's cosmicgoldfish and I'd like to start a new thread.. Before the Flood.
My opinion is currently of the old-earth day-age creationist, but I'm swayed by young-earth creationism as well.. (I do not believe there has been any evolution). I do not want this thread to be a shouting match between evolutionists and creationists, but rather a forum for discussing things that have interested me (and hopefully you also) for many years..
I am starting here with my own world-view that somehow, there probably was a global flood, (although this can be hard to defend).
My interested is what it was like before the flood, are any present day ruins evidence of a pre-flood civilization? Are there any records of pre-flood kings? Is there anything out there extra-biblical about the giants for instance? and what about the Vedas? What about the vapour canopy? Also interested in the Adam Dilemma, are human origins in Armenia or Africa? Genetic evidence points to an African origin.
I want to try and begin an discussion, rather than just arguments on specific points. Although I welcome evolutionists if that can maintain balance in the discussion.
I have been watching of late a few lectures by young-earthers, and they have some very good facts lined up.
But personally I prefer an old-earth scenario.
I have read a number of books on this subject, but I am now struggling to find new material. If we could keep it before the flood? Assuming there was a flood..

If there were a global flood such as Creation Science defends, there could be no life on earth, not even if they were all in an ark during the flood. The forces generated by the events causing the flood would destroy the surface of the earth, cause extreme temperature changes (notably in the HOT direction), and cause such violent waves that there would be nothing to return to (remember that the bird found some branches after the flood waters were subsiding?) and no way to survive even in an ark.

If there was enough force from the moving water to dig out massive canyons and create the Great Lakes, how did trees survive? If the force of water coming out of the earth could split the continents apart and create mountains, how would the resulting waves not cause the ark to capsize? Since only land animals came into the ark, how did water animals that require either fresh water or salt water survive when all the waters got muddled together?

The issue of the water canopy has been addressed. If you take the time to read that article, it's rather insightful. If you haven't, I recommend that you do. It took me about a half hour (I wasn't timing myself, so that's a rough guess).

Now, this is just my humble opinion, but I believe that there was a good reason why the flood story is in the Bible, and I don't believe that reason was to give us a history lesson. I think that Peter gave us a clue as to why it's recorded. And I believe that reason is that it serves a teaching tool to show us what Christ did, and to teach us about baptism. I think that the exact extent to which it is 100% historically factual is irrelevant. It serves as an example of Christ, and gives some baptismal imagery.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Vapor canopy is not new. Venus and Mars had it before. God did not make them into earth-like planets by giving them a global flood like the earth had.

Interesting.

Without a global flood, we will not be here.

Why is that? Please explain! Thanks.

(Also, I'm still very interested in your commentary over in CREVO on the topic of mantle-sourcing for the water for the Flood. You've piqued the interest of not one, but three geologists! I'm looking forward to some details.)

 

[Mallon]

We confuse what the 'firmament' above the earth really is because we compare its 'firmness' to water or to solid earth. By comparison it is hardly 'firm'. But contrast earth's atmosphere to space and you have a very firm 'firmament'. So firm that returning spacecraft must enter at an optimal angle to avoid bouncing off and going out into space. 'Terminal velocity' also attests to the firmness of the firmament above. Because it is so 'firm' birds and airplanes can 'swim' through it.

I still don't think you're dealing with what the Bible actually says about the firmament. The Bible says that the sun and the stars are located within the firmament -- a description that does not line up with your concordist interpretation. Have another look at that article I linked to earlier. The firmament is clearly an outdated, ancient understanding about the make-up of the earth.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

quote..
If there were a global flood such as Creation Science defends, there could be no life on earth, not even if they were all in an ark during the flood. The forces generated by the events causing the flood would destroy the surface of the earth, cause extreme temperature changes (notably in the HOT direction), and cause such violent waves that there would be nothing to return to (remember that the bird found some branches after the flood waters were subsiding?) and no way to survive even in an ark.

If there was enough force from the moving water to dig out massive canyons and create the Great Lakes, how did trees survive? If the force of water coming out of the earth could split the continents apart and create mountains, how would the resulting waves not cause the ark to capsize? Since only land animals came into the ark, how did water animals that require either fresh water or salt water survive when all the waters got muddled together?

The issue of the water canopy has been addressed. If you take the time to read that article, it's rather insightful. If you haven't, I recommend that you do. It took me about a half hour (I wasn't timing myself, so that's a rough guess).

Now, this is just my humble opinion, but I believe that there was a good reason why the flood story is in the Bible, and I don't believe that reason was to give us a history lesson. I think that Peter gave us a clue as to why it's recorded. And I believe that reason is that it serves a teaching tool to show us what Christ did, and to teach us about baptism. I think that the exact extent to which it is 100% historically factual is irrelevant. It serves as an example of Christ, and gives some baptismal imagery.

I havn't read through those links supplied yet, however I have read the book.. 'The Biblical Flood, a case study of the church's response to extrabiblical evidence' and you remind me of the fact that fresh water fish can't survive in the seas, (and unless there was a huge fish-tank on board the ark...) and the bird with a twig in it's beak also showing that there were trees still living somewhere else, which hints at a local flood.. but.. the other evidence.. what about David Fasolds ark? and the drogue stones? this is good evidence, but YEC don't seem to bother investigating this ark. There are other things around the world, (my head could break), evidence for two different world-views at the same time. What is Peter's clue?
ps. what I understand as the 'vapour canopy' is increased atmosphere, which would allow big dragon flies to fly and also those big pterosaurs, (I know it's 'heretical' thinking for some because all this happened in the pre-cretacious)
but some experiments have been done on fish to create giant fish, when the atmosphere or O2 level is increased, which would account for giant'ism in those days. I've seen some pics on you-tube of giant humans, but I can't track the pics down, so 'am thinking hoax? can any one else confirm those giant fossil humans in India and elsewhere?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Water, in it's gaseous form is the largest constituent of this firmament.

On a volume basis, this is incorrect.

Nitrogen makes up 78.8% by volume
Oxygen 20.95% by volume
Water vapor 0 to 4% by volume
(SOURCE)

It is indeed very important, though, as you point out in relation to regulating temperatures and various aspects of climate.

 

[MrSnow]

What is Peter's clue?

It was my intention for that to be included in my last post. In my own mind, at least, it was included. It seems that I was not very precise in getting my mind into the keyboard, as is too often the case.

What I meant was that Peter cites the story of the flood to teach us about baptism and the work of Christ. And I believe that the fact that it is quoted WRT those things is the very reason it is included in Scripture at all. It serves as a type of things later. It is an illustration of our salvation.

 

[juvenissun]

We confuse what the 'firmament' above the earth really is because we compare its 'firmness' to water or to solid earth. By comparison it is hardly 'firm'. But contrast earth's atmosphere to space and you have a very firm 'firmament'. So firm that returning spacecraft must enter at an optimal angle to avoid bouncing off and going out into space. 'Terminal velocity' also attests to the firmness of the firmament above. Because it is so 'firm' birds and airplanes can 'swim' through it.

Hey, Wise Guy. I learned a number of things from you in this forum. Thanks a lot.

This one puzzled me a lot. But I think you are pointing to a very very good direction to explore. Thanks very much to you. God Bless.

Think about the primordial atmosphere of the earth. Or even the primordial gases after the Big Bang, Wow ... That is exciting.

 

[juvenissun]

Water, in it's gaseous form is the largest constituent of this firmament. It's importance in regulating earth's temperature cannot be overstated.

One very important clue to the vapor canopy is that before the rain, there was no rainbow.

I think it won't be too hard (I did not do it) to calculate how much vapor should be in the air so the rainbow could not be seen by people on the surface. I think it would be so thick that the sunlight be refracted too many times so that when people look up, the lights re-merged back to white again.

 

[thaumaturgy]

One very important clue to the vapor canopy is that before the rain, there was no rainbow.

I think it won't be too hard (I did not do it) to calculate how much vapor should be in the air so the rainbow could not be seen by people on the surface. I think it would be so thick that the sunlight be refracted too many times so that when people look up, the lights re-merged back to white again.

So is OWG saying that water made up the majority of the earth's atmosphere during the time of Noah?

How did that affect air-breathing animals like humans?

 

[Assyrian]

they'd drown... oops

 

[juvenissun]

So is OWG saying that water made up the majority of the earth's atmosphere during the time of Noah?

How did that affect air-breathing animals like humans?

I have no idea on how would the physical-chemical conditions of the past earth affect the biosphere.

To me, it is an entirely separate problem. Any one who tries to mix these two problems together, then there will be no solution, at least, not at present.

However, if we put off the consideration of the biosphere, then the global flood will make a perfect sense in geological science.