Before the Fall

[DeaconDean]

Jacobus Arminius said:

V. The Spirit of grace, whose abode was within man, could not consist with a consciousness of having offended God; and, therefore, on the perpetration of sin and the condemnation of their own hearts, the Holy Spirit departed. Wherefore, the Spirit of God likewise ceased to lead and direct man, and to bear inward testimony to his heart of the favour of God. This circumstance must be considered in the place of a heavy punishment, when the law, with a depraved conscience, accused, bore its testimony [against them], convicted and condemned them.

Jacobus Arminius, Volume II, Private Disputations, Disputation XXXI, On The Effects of the Sin of Our First Parents, Section V

Source

I want to know where in the scriptures does it teach that Adam and Eve, were endued with the Holy Spirit prior to the Fall.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[SeventhValley]

I would say you could intepet Genesis 1:26,27 that way. Or physical image is a primate so our image could refer to the Spirit of God in us.

26 And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'
27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them

Why God would give us it and then take it away causing man to eat the apple I don't know. I am going to ask God that one in the new creation hopefully.

 

[twin1954]

Jacobus Arminius said:



Jacobus Arminius, Volume II, Private Disputations, Disputation XXXI, On The Effects of the Sin of Our First Parents, Section V

Source

I want to know where in the scriptures does it teach that Adam and Eve, were endued with the Holy Spirit prior to the Fall.

God Bless

Till all are one.

There have been many thousands of words written concerning the image of God in which man was made. Few have any value. The Scriptures were deliberately written to confuse the natural man with inferences and speculations. Statements such as the one you quoted are mere specualtion based on an overactive imagination. He was a product of the time he lived in and during that period many such statements and specualtions were put forth as fact.

What I find more interesting about pre-fall Adam was that he must have been created in absolute brilliance. God brought all of the animals to him for him to name and gave him dominion over all of creation. He communed with God in perfect harmony with God and experienced God's presence as none but Christ has since. And against all that knowledge and experience he still rebelled against God. And we have the temerity to think that we wouldn't have fallen if we were put in the place of Adam.

 

[DeaconDean]

He communed with God in perfect harmony with God and experienced God's presence as none but Christ has since.

My sentiments exactly.

If God, walked and talked with Adam in the cool of the day, why would Adam need the Holy Spirit?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

My sentiments exactly.

If God, walked and talked with Adam in the cool of the day, why would Adam need the Holy Spirit?

What a difficult topic and challenging question. Something which came to mind is the following:

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (KJV) (see also John 14:26, 15:26)

It seems by way of implication of what Jesus spoke, that the comforter, the Holy Spirit had not yet come. However, we also know from reading the O.T. that the Spirit of God was with God's chosen people, like David for example. So there seems to be different manners in which the Spirit of God has worked through the people of God throughout history.

If anything, Adam proved Weslyian perfectionism to be a myth, because if we assume he had the Spirit of God indwelling in him, and he still ending up sinning in rebellion, our proponents might want to claim this as evidence of them "falling from grace", and though there were consequences, they did not fall from grace. Internal evidences like where we read about God continuing to provide for their needs, providing them with clothing, even though they disobeyed a direct command from God, He had mercy on them, and beginning with them a lineage of God's chosen people. If anything Adam and Eve are examples of how a Christian can and does sin.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I should also note, it's not that we do not deserve to fall from grace, because we do, the difference in consequences between us and Adam is that Christ necessarily paid for our consequences, and because of Christ, God has mercy on us too.

 

[DeaconDean]

Next question...

John Calvin wrote:

The prohibition to touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a trial of obedience, that Adam, by observing it, might prove his willing submission to the command of God.

John Calvin, Institues of the Christian Religion, Book II, Chapter 1, Through the Fall and Revolt of Adam, The Whole Human Race Made Accursed And Degenerate Of Original Sin, Section 4

Can somebody show me the scripture that prohibits the touching of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil?

Was not Adam put in the garden to dress and keep it?

"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." -Gen. 2:15-17 (KJV)

And if he had to dress it and keep it, did it not involve touching of trees to trim them?

Where is the command forbidding him to not touch it?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

A few months ago I listened to a sermon/lecture by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson relating to this topic, here is a snippet from it:

"Now, the third thing that Satan does in the 5th verse is to malign the author of Scripture. He says in the 5th verse, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God.”

Now, it’s difficult to know how to render that because this is the word, eloyhim, which remember in Hebrew, is a plural noun but which may refer to God as a singular person or it may refer to gods as plural gods. Now my version has ye shall be as God, and I’m inclined to think that is correct. “Ye shall be as God: knowing good and evil.”

Now, here he has said that God does not want you to become as he is and know good and evil. Because you see, he’s not really good. And so the suggestion contained in, “Ye hath God said ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden,” fostered by, “You shall not surely die.” Now reaches its climax in this thrust against the goodness of God.

It’s almost as if we have here a little well poisoning. Satan is trying to create suspicion of God and he’s now succeeded. Really what he’s saying is something like this; “You know, God is just a person like you and I are. Now, wouldn’t you like to be God? Wouldn’t you like to be the one who controls the destiny of your own life? Don’t you want to be your own master? Don’t you realize really the difference between God and you is that he knows a few tricks that you don’t know? And, of course, if you discover all of his tricks and learn his recipes, you’re going to be just like he is. So why wouldn’t he want to keep you from learning his tricks? Because he wants to keep you under his control.”

Now, of course, since Eve has become to doubt the goodness of God, her faith is wavering and she is a sucker for this kind of reason. And of course, what she finally falls for is basically the result of man’s sin today. We want to be our own masters, don’t we? We want to be our own little gods; we don’t want anybody bothering us. I think everyone of us, naturally speaking, would be very happy if we were supreme. Nietzsche was right when he said he wanted to be a God and if there was a God he couldn’t stand it not to be a God because that’s the way we are. That’s the way that sin came into the human race. We want to be independent of God." - from the sermon/lecture "The Fall of man, pt. 1" or HERE.

 

[DeaconDean]

A few months ago I listened to a sermon/lecture by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson relating to this topic, here is a snippet from it:

"Now, the third thing that Satan does in the 5th verse is to malign the author of Scripture. He says in the 5th verse, “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God.”

Now, it’s difficult to know how to render that because this is the word, eloyhim, which remember in Hebrew, is a plural noun but which may refer to God as a singular person or it may refer to gods as plural gods. Now my version has ye shall be as God, and I’m inclined to think that is correct. “Ye shall be as God: knowing good and evil.”

Now, here he has said that God does not want you to become as he is and know good and evil. Because you see, he’s not really good. And so the suggestion contained in, “Ye hath God said ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden,” fostered by, “You shall not surely die.” Now reaches its climax in this thrust against the goodness of God.

It’s almost as if we have here a little well poisoning. Satan is trying to create suspicion of God and he’s now succeeded. Really what he’s saying is something like this; “You know, God is just a person like you and I are. Now, wouldn’t you like to be God? Wouldn’t you like to be the one who controls the destiny of your own life? Don’t you want to be your own master? Don’t you realize really the difference between God and you is that he knows a few tricks that you don’t know? And, of course, if you discover all of his tricks and learn his recipes, you’re going to be just like he is. So why wouldn’t he want to keep you from learning his tricks? Because he wants to keep you under his control.”

Now, of course, since Eve has become to doubt the goodness of God, her faith is wavering and she is a sucker for this kind of reason. And of course, what she finally falls for is basically the result of man’s sin today. We want to be our own masters, don’t we? We want to be our own little gods; we don’t want anybody bothering us. I think everyone of us, naturally speaking, would be very happy if we were supreme. Nietzsche was right when he said he wanted to be a God and if there was a God he couldn’t stand it not to be a God because that’s the way we are. That’s the way that sin came into the human race. We want to be independent of God." - from the sermon/lecture "The Fall of man, pt. 1" or HERE.

I'm not arguing, but I am raising a point in that Eve said to the serpent:

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." -Gen 3:3 (KJV)

And John Calvin agrees in the above quote.

And Calvin is right in showing what was lost by the sin of Adam:

From infidelity, again, sprang ambition and pride, together with ingratitude; because Adam, by longing for more than was allotted him, manifested contempt for the great liberality with which God had enriched him

Ibid

And not only does mankind as a whole suffer from Adam's actions, but the whole of nature itself:

Nor is it strange that he who perverted the whole order of nature in heaven and earth deteriorated his race by his revolt. “The whole creation groaneth,” saith St Paul, “being made subject to vanity, not willingly,” (Rom. 8:20, 22). If the reason is asked, there cannot be a doubt that creation bears part of the punishment deserved by man, for whose use all other creatures were made. Therefore, since through man’s fault a curse has extended above and below, over all the regions of the world, there is nothing unreasonable in its extending to all his offspring.

Ibid

However, I'm asking for somebody to show me where the command of not to touch is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

However, I'm asking for somebody to show me where the command of not to touch is.

Gen 2:15-17 reads...

15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (NKJV)

There is a command here, and to eat from said tree would require touching it (whatever type of edible food it was) with hands/lips. Chronologically it appears to be before God created Eve.

That Eve said what she did, implies that either God Himself or Adam had passed along the instruction. She not only rebelled against the authority of God, but the authority God had given Adam. So the original sin had autonomous intentions behind it, and in that spiritual death a separation from God, and yet the Theonomy of God continuing with them in pronouncement of consequences, while graciously sustaining their physical existence.

 

[twin1954]

I am amazed at how God works everything in minute detail to point us to and show us Christ. Here is a thought concerning Adam and Eve and the Fall; The Scriptures tell us that Adam wasn't deceived. 1Tim.2:14 Adam partook of the fruit not because he was rebelling against God but because he had entered into a coveneant relationship with Eve. They two had become one. He gave himself for his bride. He took her sin upon himself and died because of her. He loved her and gave himself for her.

Is that not what our Savior, the Last Adam, did for His bride?