• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Before sin

Status
Not open for further replies.

sentipente

Senior Contributor
Jul 17, 2007
11,651
4,492
Silver Sprint, MD
✟54,142.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Politics
US-Others
We all know the story of the rebellion in heaven which led to Lucifer and his guys being thrown out of the heavenly kingdom. My question goes back one step to the period before the rebellion. Let's discuss what the angels did in the kingdom of heaven before there were any divisions in the government of the universe.
 

Spade48d

Regular Member
Aug 10, 2007
112
6
Ohio
✟15,262.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Hello sentipente,

As far as I can tell, the Lucifer refereed to in Ezekiel is not an angel or Satan. Here we have another case of dogma gone awry. It is so clear after reading Ezekiel, you wonder how things could get so screwed up. Is there another Lucifer mentioned in scripture that I need to read about?

Is there anything in scripture that tells us what the angels did before creation? I am rather new in my search and am not as familiar as I would like.
 
Upvote 0
B

Ben12

Guest
The word angel means messenger does not have to be heavenly; but can be. In Satan’s case I would rather not believe they are heavenly messengers. I have posted the following aleady but find it appropiate.

Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.


Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.


Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?
It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)


Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..


I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.




 
Upvote 0

Kristos

Servant
Aug 30, 2006
7,379
1,068
Minnesota
✟45,052.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is wack. Isaiah 54 has nothing to do with Satan, he talking about Jewish people. LXX reads very differenlty:
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

I checked several contemporary commentaries that probably used the KJV, and even they did draw the conclusion that you did. They associate the waster with Man, but really in light of the LXX it's silly to even talk about.
 
Upvote 0
B

Ben12

Guest

Did GOD create the Devil? Well, we know he did not create himself! And he did not"just happen"! The reason some have held the view that Satan was originally an angel is because it seems to relieve God of the responsibility of evil and sin in the world.

How COULD an all-wise and holy God create an evil Devil? Our reply to that is another question: If God, all-wise and all-knowing, created a being and designed within this being the inherent ability and potential to become evil - a will capable of rebelling against Him, and if in His omniscience He knew beforehand that this creature would become evil, is God then any LESS responsible for the Devil? If we say God created a good being and did not know he would become evil, then the Devil got a step ahead of God! If the Devil could do something back there which God did not know he would do, or did not plan for him to do, THEN HOW CAN WE BE SURE HE MIGHT NOT PULL A FAST ONE ON GOD AGAIN! Ah, beloved, such religous reasoning is an affront to the majesty of the Most High God! Is it any less thinkable that God would create an evil one than just to create one with the God-given ability to become evil? In either case, there is absolutely no way to absolve GOD from the Devil!

That "all things are of God" is declared over and over again in the Bible. Did not the Lord say to Pharaoh, that wicked man of rebellion against all that was of God, "Even for this same purpose have I RAISED YOU UP, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth?" (Rom. 9:17). The infinite wisdom of God's mind cannot be ascertained by our carnal little heads of ours. God is in all things, and is responsible for all things, including all the so-called evil things as well as good things. Is it not a fearful thing to say that evil is of God? There is nothing fearful about this view unless the TRUTH be fearful! I would not be surprised if some of the compatriots of the prophet Amos may have thought he was speaking blasphemy when by the Holy Spirit he said, "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be EVIL in a city, and THE LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Amos 3:6)

There are untold millions ot Christians who do not like to believe that A-L-L T-H-I-N-G-S A-R-E O-F G-O-D - including evil. They much prefer to believe, as many have taught them, that in the beginning God made everything "perfect," then one of the "perfect" angels "made himself" into the Devil and the Devil came in and wrecked the work of God's hands and so degraded God's beautiful and perfect creation that the Lord Almighty Himself was hard to put to the test to discover some way to restore the creation from the clutches of the Devil and after six long and tortuous milleniums of conflict and struggle, contest and effort the battle still rages on year after year and generation after generation, the Devil out-foxing God at times, and God getting the upper hand eventually.

Why, oh why can men not believe the simple, unvarnished Word of God? Ah, we have God's own Word for it - His positive statement that HE CREATES EVIL. "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, THAT THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL. I THE LORD DO ALL OF THESE THINGS" (Isa. 45:7). God creates evil! It cannot be! But here it is in the Word. "We must explain it somehow," the fundamentalist says, "surely it cannot mean that God creates evil, sin, sinners, devils, or wrongdoing - it must mean that He creates physical evil - famines, pestilences, hurricanes, tornadoes, forest fires, floods, calamities, judgments, etc. which God sends upon mankind as punishment for their wickedness." Not so! The word here for "evil" is the Hebrew word "ra" which is used throughout the Old Testament to denote wickedness, sin and wrongdoing. In some five hundred passages it is so used!

For example, in Gen. 6:5 we read, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil (ra) continually." Again, "And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil (ra) in the sight of the Lord, was consumed" (Num. 32:13). In Ps. 34:13-15 we are admonished, "Keep your tongue from evil (ra), and your lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil (ra), and do good ... the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open unto their cry. The very same word in the original is also rendered "wicked" and "wickedness" more than a hundred times. So God declares, "I must form the light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things!" Why should puny man attempt to shield the Almighty from the responsibility He Himself has taken? If He says He creates peace, then believe Him. If He says He creates evil, then believe that, too. Do you remember how they brought the blind man to Jesus, and as the poor fellow stood there, the disciples said to Jesus, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus replied, "Neither has this man sinned, not his parents: BUT THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM" (Jn. 9:2-3). So through the evil of blindness the glory of God was manifested in the end!
MAN says that the serpent in the Garden was one of these, long slender reptiles that have backbones and ribs and scales on the outside of their bodies. Numerous pictures have been painted of the snake dangling from the limb of a tree, conversing with Mother Eve. In the book of Revelation we have a truth given by revelation to the apostle John wherein is revealed a most important fact concerning Satan and the serpent. This truth is stated twice in the book. Two is the number of WITNESS, thus has God given a clear and unmistakable WITNESS concerning the identity of the serpent. Hear, now, the Word of the Lord! "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him ... and I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years" (Rev. 12:9; 20:1-2).
Here Satan is called "that old serpent." The word "old" is from the Greek word "archaios" which means ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL. "Primeval" means FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE. "Archaios" is from the Greek word "arche" which means A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore, "arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word "archomai" which means TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME. Putting this all together can we not see that Satan is that OLD serpent, that ANCIENT serpent, that ORIGINAL serpent, that PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE, from the BEGINNING, who existed as a serpent right FROM THE COMMENCEMENT OF TIME!
Phillip's translation reads, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key of the pit and a huge chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the SERPENT OF ANCIENT DAYS, who IS both the Devil and Satan ..." Another version states, "And he seized the dragon, the ORIGINAL SERPENT, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..." The Amplified Bible says, "And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that OLD SERPENT OF PRIMEVAL TIMES, WHO IS the Devil and Satan ..."

God is THE CAUSE of all that is. It all exists with the one purpose of showing forth His glory. Every object in nature and every creature in the universe has its only reason of existence in this - that the wondrous goodness and wisdom and power of God may shine out through it. God is the end and aim of all things, because He is their beginning and origin. All must fulfill His will because all came from Him and exist only through Him.

 
Upvote 0

Ormly

Senior Veteran
Dec 11, 2004
6,230
94
✟7,151.00
Faith
Christian
Indeed, according to the scrptures, Angels are messengers. What was "messaged" by them was from God to His Universal heavenly realm, whatever that may be in one's imagination.

In the "way" of the Cross, I see Human's made Divine, to be Governors and Rulers over these realm; nations, as Revelation has them. However, not as messengers as the Angels are, but as the actual representation of God in Human flesh; Divine Flesh we see in Christ Jesus; Glorified Bodies in complete union with and of God that there will be no distinction possible. . . Per John 17.
 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We all know the story of the rebellion in heaven which led to Lucifer and his guys being thrown out of the heavenly kingdom. My question goes back one step to the period before the rebellion. Let's discuss what the angels did in the kingdom of heaven before there were any divisions in the government of the universe.

Great question - would love your thoughts on "God did not create evil" if you are up for a long read :)

Before we came to Earth, we were spirits. Spirits have no body, they can learn some things, but cannot learn all things. We progressed as far as we could
Now we are learning to control matter - that matter being our bodies, our flesh - this is the next level in our education.

Please read through the Plan of salvation - would love your comments :)

http://christianforums.com/t6549855
 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I RAISED YOU UP, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth?" (Rom. 9:17). The infinite wisdom of God's mind cannot be ascertained by our carnal little heads of ours. God is in all things, and is responsible for all things, including all the so-called evil things as well as good things. ... HE CREATES EVIL. ...

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(New Testament | Matthew12:24 - 30)

God does NOT create evil! Satan would teach you that... God did not create everything! Please read first post on:
http://christianforums.com/t6549855

He Loves us, and wants the best for us.
He is not hypocritical – all of the things He teaches us to be, Loving, selfless, merciful, just, … He is.

PS - the Bible has been altered, many things have been removed and re-written... Evil men wanting power have changed it so that instead of bringing people to know a Loving God, you have to be saved by a church from a wrathful God. No church will save you - Jesus Saves. Love my church, but I do not hold it above my God or Savior...

if you want to see where things have been removed from the Bible...

Lost Books. The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).
The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.
(Bible Dictionary | LLost Books:Entry)

The lost books are scriptures... If you want to know the truth - pray, and the Holy Ghost will let you know what is true, and good, and holy, and pure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

The Son and the Father are one in purpose.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

No one – not even God, can be both Good and Evil, you are either good, or you are evil, you cannot be both. You can know them by their fruits – that which is good brigeth foth good fruits, evil brings forth evil fruits.

Again, He is either good, or evil – it is impossible to be both.
Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 12:1 - 3
1 IN the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee ...
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 1:5)

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home...

- William Wordsworth

 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
A painting is born in the mind of the artist. In that sense, it exists before it appears on the canvas but we would not say it was a spirit before it was a painting.

Great parable - I agree, the painting existed in "spirit" before it was physically on the canvas. We are more than just flesh and blood... We existed in "spirit" before we were physically upon the face of the Earth too.

In Gen there are two accounts of the creation... some use this to say the Bible has errors, as the order of creation is slightly different between the two accounts. I say, one account was our "soiritual" creation, the other account was our "physical" creation...

You are prob not familiar with the book of Moses... none the less, I will post it anyways...

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses3:5)

He is our "Heavenly" Father. We are His "spirit" children. Literally, He is the Father of our Spirits... We were created in heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Old Testament | Genesis2:4 - 5)

...
Does not the Holy Spirit testify to you that you are His child?
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
(New Testament | Luke24:32)
 
Upvote 0

Idea

Veteran
Sep 19, 2007
1,142
47
Zion
✟24,050.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Let's hear your answers :

Why the inequities in life?
Some are so rich.
Some so wretchedly poor.
Some so beautifully formed, and others with pitiful handicaps.
Some are gifted and others retarded.
Why the injustice, the untimely death?
Why the neglect, the sorrow, the pain?
Why divorce, incest, perversion, abuse, and cruelty?

Is God just, or not?

Why is it so strange a thought that we lived as spirits before entering mortality? Christian doctrine proclaims the Resurrection, meaning that we will live after mortal death. If we live beyond death, why should it be strange that we lived before birth?

The Christian world in general accepts the idea that our condition in the Resurrection will be determined by our actions in this life. Why can they not believe that some circumstances in this life were determined by our actions before coming into mortality?
 
Upvote 0

sentipente

Senior Contributor
Jul 17, 2007
11,651
4,492
Silver Sprint, MD
✟54,142.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Politics
US-Others
The answer to your questions is very simple. All these issues arise because humans refuse to accept the basic premise that the human race is one body. We see ourselves as individuals in competition for scarce resources rather than one body seeking to survive as one.

Beliefs are only hypotheses and must be shown to be true in the light of reality. Believing something does not make it true.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.