Be honest-what's wrong with the Messianic movement

[Higher Truth]

There has been much talk on the many threads about the error in the church , so let's be honest..where does the Messianic movement and the governing bodies fall short and what would you suggest to correct this.

 

[Sabian]

Not sure I understand you need to tell me what church and what error. I would think every church has some error.
The Messianic movement I find beautiful.
What would I do to change it ?
Any thing built be man will fail, The arm of man will Fail you. So my answer is (The Messianic movement is not perfect) So I pray for the WILL of YAH.
Not my will but YOUR FATHER WILL
May we all understand oneday.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

HigherTruth,
I don't agree that we would call our gathering a church, more like an Assembly and the building we gather in is called a Synagogue. But that is divided as well within the Messianic movement. Or rather so-called splits on what ideas are to be held within the movement.

To answer your question: In my opinion I see much wrong, yet this is my opinion and I don't know if it is YHVH's. In that it is wide spead in thought or rather belief of what interpretations are held in the Tanakh and B'rit Khadashah. For example the when one says Roman Catholic one knows you are talking of a body that has a head called a Pope. When one says Pentecostal you know they are talking about a body that holds that you must speak in tongues as proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit. When one says Mormon you know they are talking about a body that has a book called "The pearl of great price" as well as one called "The book of Mormon". When one says Muslim or Islam you know they are talking about a body that calls their God "Allah" and their main prophet "Muhamed". And there are many other examples. Please forgive any mispellings or errors on my part.
So now in Messianic Judaism we have some saying they believe everyone is obligated in keeping Torah. And there are others that say only the Jews need comply with Torah. And still more that say when one comes to the faith in Yeshua that they are part of the Kingdom of Israel so they are therefore obligated in keeping Torah.
And on another hand some that are in Messianic Judaism say Yeshua is YHVH. And others say Yeshua isn't YHVH. So we have many so-called splits. Yet I believe that many will come in the Name of Yeshua and be bringing false beliefs along with them that they gathered from other false teachings that have been circulating since Yeshua was on planet earth. That is the way of Hasatan to bring confusion and you know that we are getting close to the time of Yeshua's return. There are many other issues at hand, yet I believe those two I mentioned above are the main ones.
I would have to say that Yeshua will correct the errors within the Messianic Movement. When? I can't say, but soon. Some say we need a Beit Din or how ever you spell it. That is a governing body that makes the decisions on what is what. On how one would prove they have the Truth will be a matter I would like to see myself when the time comes for the Messianic movement to put together a governing body like the Jewish synogogues have.

Shalom,
Tag

 

[Higher Truth]

I think the problem with the Messianic movement, is that like the church, it is being tossed around by every wind of doctrine. It has become [in some arena's] more about feeling, and less about fact. It is starting to remind me of a jingling ca$h regi$ter. What ever happened to the term "freely give" in scripture.I am afraid that if it keeps going like this, they will have to get their own television network and name it MBN [a play on TBN ]

Just my opinion....

 

[koilias]

My Israeli professor on Rabbinic parables related to me that when she read the parable of the "Wheat and the Tares", she wondered why Christians were so divided and inclined towards hatred.

In her Jewish eyes, the intention of the parable was clear. To teach us tolerance, for not even the angels in heaven have the authority to cast out the tares.

I myself wondered why I had never read the parable this way. Unfortunately, it's probably a cultural thing. We're dealing with the legacy of a "Crusader" mentality, where it's ok to throw stones at those who theologically disagree with you.

 

[simchat_torah]

There is no accountability. That's why you have the passing waves of doctrine.

Humans by nature need authority to submit to. Without leadership, we act like lost puppies.

Basically, I think it boils down to a need for a Beit Din. HaShem saw this need and answered in the Torah with defining how that leadership should be put together and how it should govern.

Otherwise, it's chaos.

just my 2 cents.

 

[SonWorshipper]

I think that the Messianic movement is in a continual state of growth. I have seen it in my own congregation, with my Rabbi and even from last year to this at the Messiah conference. A lot of these changes I do believe are being lead by the Spirit as I also believe we are to submit to Him in all things. It is the Ruach who leads us into all truth, not men; don't we have a 2000 years old example of the fiasco that can lead to? Oy!



For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of G-d knowesth no man, but the Ruach of G-d. 1Cor.2:11



I also think that the L-rd spoke about this in Revelation when He ended each "critique" with "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the congregations (churches). Notice that He says this 7 times.

 

[yod]

in my opinion, the biggest error in the messianic movement is a desire to distance itself from the larger body of christians.

This is done for different reasons;

1) Pride - we have the "hidden" and complete knowledge by virtue of knowing the hebraic roots.
2) Unforgiveness for things done by christians against jews in the distant past...and the present.
3) Envy - we want to be the leaders of the body. Instead of waiting upon the Lord to raise up leadership we appoint ourselves the "true" leaders.



Even where messianics are in the right, we have no "self" righteousness to boast about.

To distance ourselves from the larger body of Messiah is a huge mistake. I find myself extrememly embarressed by the stupid things the Falwell contingent says...and hurt by the narrow criticism of the legalists who don't understand what the Lord is doing in the jewish world...but that does not give me liscense to return evil for evil.

We are one in Messiah whether we (or they) like it or not. If we truly are "correct" then we should be the ones setting an example of love instead of being sucked into stupid arguements.

Let 1 Corinthians 13 be our guide

 

[simchat_torah]

in my opinion, the biggest error in the messianic movement is a desire to distance itself from the larger body of christians.

No slight to you Yod, but I actually have a polar view as you do.

I think that the gravest error is to distance themselves from the Jewish community and from Judaism itself.

 

[simchat_torah]

I could even produce 3 polar examples:

1) Pride - we have the "hidden" and complete knowledge by virtue of knowing the hebraic roots.

I would say that messianics often feel pride over their Jewish bretheren because they have this 'secret knowledge' of the messiah. Something much more powerful in which to dangle than 'hebraic knowledge'.

2) Unforgiveness for things done by christians against jews in the distant past...and the present.

Unforgiveness for Jews not accepting of Messianics as a valid expression of Judaism.

3) Envy - we want to be the leaders of the body. Instead of waiting upon the Lord to raise up leadership we appoint ourselves the "true" leaders.

Envy of Jews themselves for hoarding the religion "Judaism" and envy of Jewish ancestory, culture, and uniqueness as "the people of G-d". As well, this again relates to pride as Messianics often feel (or express) that they should be the leaders as they have the 'secret knowledge of the messiah'.


My pov.

 

[yod]

While I agree that those are valid points, I don't see them as "What's wrong with Messianic Judaism" (the subject of the thread). It seems to me that trying to be more jewish than the Orthodox only draws their contempt and also alienates us from those jews who hate the Orthodox.

If we relate with "non-Mashiach aware" people (Jew or Gentile) then there will always be that Rock of Offense where we simply must disagree...unless "they" recieve Him or "we" denounce Him.

But in the case of the larger body of believers, we are part of His body and He calls us to be in fellowship with each other...in union on the essentials of our faith according the book of John in chapter 17.

By our love one for another they shall know HIM.

 

[yod]

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No slight to you Yod, but I actually have a polar view as you do.

I think that the gravest error is to distance themselves from the Jewish community and from Judaism itself.

come to think of it....

I don't know any messianic groups who do this. We seem to bend over backwards to accomodate the Jewish community even though most Jews don't even do that...

And I SINCERELY believe that modern rabbinic judaism is not biblical...therefore embracing it is no different than embracing the pagan practises of the church.

It is a cultural expression of faith either way. Not particularly wrong but not biblically correct either.

But every group that I have seen who goes down that rabbinic road ends up splitting over the question of the diety of Yeshua. So when I get to a fork in the road, I take it!

 

[simchat_torah]

come to think of it....

I don't know any messianic groups who do this.

Every group does this in the sense that they must divide themselves from Judaism and instead of uniting in worship, they feel a necessity to create special "Messianic Congregations".

This is only scraping the surface of the issue though.

 

[yod]

instead of uniting in worship, they feel a necessity to create special "Messianic Congregations".

Is there something wrong with that?

If there is one thing that is worth being divided over it is the Messiah.

Luke 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

 

[simchat_torah]

James seemed to conclude differently. He instructed the believers (acts 15) to conitnue going to synagouge and hear the Torah on Shabbat. He never instructed the messianics to seperate themselves and start different congregations. The Messiah was never to be a point of division.

Granted, they did study the Messiah... in their homes, particularly holding messianic bible studies, but they still remained in the synagouge.

The end result when division came? You now have Judaism today that rejects Messianic Judaism as a valid form of Judaism. A Jew can be an athiest, believe in Budha, or have nearly any cultish religious belief and still be a Jew, but if they believe in the Messiah they are automatically no longer a Jew.

This division came when 'messianics' decided they had too much pride in their hearts, unforgiveness in their souls, and envy of their Jewish bretheren...

Now we have a completely messed up Messianic situation that is horrific to say the least... and James, the head of the Messianic council in the first century, would have never stood for it.

Nor do I.
-Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

The division Y'shua spoke of was not a willful divison on the part of believers. When a believer willfully divides themself from the Jewish community, they are acting against HaShem... that is my perspective.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

Funny thing, a synagouge isn't necessarily a place you come to study on Shabbat. The command is that we come together as a community to:

1) Hear the Torah on Shabbat.
2) Worship HaShem on Shabbat.

Teaching and study are wonderful things to do on Shabbat, but are not necessarily mitzvot that must be fulfilled. Why messianics feel a need reject a synagouge that doesn't teach about the Moshiach on Shabbat baffles me.

my 2 pesos.
yafet.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

How about this... We who, believe in the Messiah and also believe in KEEPING TORAH as Yeshua did, happen to attend an assembly on the Sabbath, not on Sunday as main line Christianity does. Remember He didn't Abolish Torah or the Prophets, also Heaven and Earth didn't pass away yet either. Aren't we supposed to be set apart from the world? So tell me how you are set apart? So you believe in YHVH? Well so does Hasatan. Who do you think would just love to continue the confusion that has been around for almost 2000 years? Hasatan would.
I would say those who are in the Mainline Christianity are too prideful to admit that they were taught by false teachers, IMHO. If a Prophet according to the Scriptures gets ONE prophecy WRONG, aren't they considered a FALSE PROPHET? YES, they are. So if someone teaches false teachings wouldn't they be considered false teachers or rather LIARS or even better blind guides.

And on the other side of the issue. The Jewish sector. Of course Yeshua said those who aren't sick don't need a doctor. He said the lawless ones are in need. Those who lost their tie with Torah. Yet I am talking of those of the Northern Kingdom ain't I Well let's look to the south now. What did Yeshua say to those who were teaching Torah? Yeshua was saying what? Wasn't He saying that they making the Torah a BURDEN? I suppose you, a Jew know what a Fence law is don't you? Of course you do. It is an ADDITION to what YHVH taught, or rather COMMANDED, by the teachers of the TORAH so that the regular Jewish Joe wouldn't be able to break the LAWS. Yet this caused the Instructions of YHVH to be a REALLY BIG BURDEN didn't it.
Yet we must know why Yeshua said that we need to do what the Pharisees told us to do and NOT WHAT THEY DO. Why is that? Why did Yeshua correct the Pharisees and Scribes? WHY? WHY? WHY? if they were so righteous, which is what was implied when He, Yeshua said that those that are well don't need a doctor.
(Mat 9:10) It happened as he sat in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Yeshua and his talmidim.

(Mat 9:11) When the Perushim saw it, they said to his talmidim, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

(Mat 9:12) When Yeshua heard it, he said to them, "Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick do.

(Mat 9:13) But you go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

The Jews had Torah already and therefore didn't need to be retaught on keeping Torah, yet remember the Teachers of the Torah made the Torah a Burden with all the added Fence Laws.
I hear friends of mine who have been around many Jews say that they don't turn on electrical devices, yet will have someone else turn it on for them. Hmmm, what is wrong with that picture? Well they aren't even supposed to have the foreinger work on Shabbat either. That is just ONE item.

I do wonder why Messinics don't go to a Jewish Synogogue on a regular basis and also why Christians don't go to a Messianic or Jewish Synogogue. There are those in the Messianic realm that do go to Christian congregations as well as Jewish Synogogues, SO make sure you know what you are talking about before opening your mouth with false statements. Yes that goes for me FIRST.
The reason I see Messianics and even Jews not going to a Church regularly is because many things that are taught in a Christian Church doesn't coincide with what is taught in either Synogogue. And the MAIN ISSUE is TORAH. Yeshua didn't abolish or replace Torah:
(Mat 5:17) "Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill.

(Mat 5:18) For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished.

(Mat 5:19) Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least mitzvot, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

(Mat 5:20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Perushim, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And fulfilled doesn't mean done away with either does it.
So now what? Shall we be blind or so legalistic that what YHVH gave in HIS TORAH is lost to blind eyes of Christianity or to the Fences of Judaism?

I'll tell you what is wrong in both camps as well as in the Messianic Judaism camp: PRIDE!!!
So even in the Messianic Judaism camp we can be too legalistic and/or too blind to TORAH. What is TORAH? It is the INSTRUCTIONS from YHVH on how to LIVE A RIGHTEOUS LIFE. Why do some believe that Yeshua is TORAH in Bodily form? Because He lived TORAH and TAUGHT TORAH CORRECTLY without all the additions of Judaism or the subtraction of Christianity. And that is where Messianic Judaism comes in, to learn what exactly YESHUA our MESSIAH taught of YHVH's TORAH which in His own words said that TORAH WOULD NOT PASS AWAY UNTIL? Not until HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY.
What is Grace without direction? What is legalism without Love? What is life without YHVH's WORD? What is YHVH's WORD? Isn't it TORAH? Didn't Yeshua teach TORAH in the SYNOGOGUE every SHABBAT? Did YESHUA start a NEW RELIGION? NO!!! Because if He did start a new Religion then He wouldn't have been teaching in the Synogogues would He.
And without Christianity the WORD(TORAH) wouldn't have been spread throughout the WORLD now would it.
So here we sit in the middle of two camps who are divided in a world that could careless for any of us. As a matter of fact a WORLD that HATES US. WHO IS OUR ENEMY? Isn't it Hasatan? Doesn't he use every means to bring confusion to US in this WORLD that HATES US and serves him?
Me, I would like to see Christians going to synogogues to learn what the Jewishness of the First Covenant(OT) is all about AND I would also like to see Jews go to Christian Churches to learn about their MESSIAH as well as teach the Christian realm about Torah.
In order to understand the Renewed Covenant(NT) you have to understand the First Covenant which isn't changed.
Just remember the above is an observation that I feel holds true. Yet what proofs do I have? Well I will have to let YHVH deal with that we each of you individually for I can't prove anything to you if your mind is set in what ever fashion that you chose.
More and more I feel I want to go to a Jewish ran college so that I can learn what we as humanity has lost in terms of the Jewishness of the Messiah's Teachings.
Shalom,
Tag

 

[yod]

Thank you Shamash. That is an insightful reading of the situation. My wife was raised a Baptist. I will challenge any messianic in the world to the standard of holiness she keeps. It puts me to shame....

She's up praying at 6AM for about an hour. Shabbat? She rests....then goes to church on Sunday. That seems more biblical than what I do by going to the synagogue (messianic) on Shabbat and making this one of the busiest days of the week.

This division came when 'messianics' decided they had too much pride in their hearts, unforgiveness in their souls, and envy of their Jewish bretheren...

I sincerely don't know where you got that idea. The split came at Yavneh. It was the jewish community that rejected the messianics who obeyed the teaching of Yeshua when the city of Jerusalem was surrounded by heading for the hills. The jewish community has considered messianics as traitors since then.

I have been involved at a semi-leadership level for many years in both the UMJC and now the MJAA. I can tell you that, for the most part, messianics are constantly reaching out to the jewish community. At some point we have to be witnesses of Yeshua or else we deny Him. This is the point of division.

I also know a few messianics (including myself) who are involved at different levels in the jewish community. They go to those synagogues and participate in the local JCCs. Yet, they have to be quiet about their faith or be rejected. This would fall under that catagory of being a witness and there is nothing wrong with shining His light...but that is not on the same level as rejecting our brethren in the church simply out of a righteousness that is found in the Law.

THIS is a serious problem because we should be drawing strength (in numbers and other ways) from the church and being a "light unto the gentiles" at the same time.

Should we be involved with the jewish community? Absolutely! I would never argue against it. But is that the worst problem in the messianic movement? I think not.

 

[yod]

Let me give one example:


I was at the "Solidarity with Israel" rally that the Christian Coalition did in Washington DC on Oct 11th 2002.

The Israeli governement sent representatives to speak to the evangelical christian community because they realize that we are their most loyal supporters. Yet, they insisted that they would not share any stage that had a messianic jew speaking. So, they have no problem with gentiles who believe in Jesus...yet they despised jews who do.

But the first row of this convocation was almost completely jewish....the messianics of the front right and the Israelis and American jews on the front left. At one point, a christian speaker onstage prompted everyone to join hands as we prayed for Israel. This is where I saw the role of the church in a prophetic way.

An elderly lady walked in the aisle up to the first row. Without realizing what she was doing, she joined hands across the aisle and stood in the gap between the messianics on her right hand and the Israelis on her left hand. This, sir, is the role of the gentile church....to restore the jews to EACH OTHER through Yeshua. This can only be done IN the Messiah, not apart from it.

The Lord will have to do this miraculous thing. No amount of our works can accomplish it.