Be fruitful & Multiply?

[Godcreatedsteve]

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

This is a vision, and therefore does not depict actual persons or heavenly beings.
​

A vision by a prophet of God is always of actual things, or else it is a false prophet.

Also, this is the second time you've broken your word by answering my post. My understanding was that you report my posts to the muckety-mucks rather than answering them.

 

[Harry3142]

GodCreatedSteve-

Are you implying that those who chose to have wives and fanilies were less than spiritual. That is gnosticism, not Christianity. In fact, one of the gnostic books, St. Paul and Thecla, focuses on her resistance to marrying because if she does so it will cost Thecla her salvation.

But the passage in Romans did not mean to imply that those who engaged in marital relations were either inherently evil, or on a lower rung from those who chose to remain celibate. Celibacy too is a gnostic attitude, not the attitude of the Christians of the 1st century. Instead, it was meant to tell them that those who desired the carnality of the numerous houses of prostitution which littered the region were not to be seen as equal with those who sought spirituality.

Paul wrote that he preferred that they remain unmarried, as he was, but that was his personal opinion, not to be confused with orthodox teaching. And because he was reared in Tarsus, a city located in the Gentile area, he knew more than others what persecutions faced the Christians. This included the killing of their entire families as punishment for their faith in Jesus Christ.

As for Maimonides, I have read his list myself, as well as reading what other rabbis have said concerning this commandment. So you stand alone by seeing it as a blessing rather than a commandment, because universally it is seen as a prerogative. They are to marry and have children.

 

[KimberlyAA]

I won't advocate gay and lesbian relationships as I believe God is firmly against that. You raised some good points, however, I think in the beginning when God said to be fruitful and multiply He meant both physically and spiritually. Physically because he wanted humans to fill the Earth and have dominion over it and also he wanted to bless Adam's descendants through Noah and future generations. Spiritually because he wanted everyone to come to know Him and to bear fruits of the Spirit such as love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

<H3 class="r g0">fruit·ful/&#712;fro&#862;otf&#601;l/

Adjective:

• (of a tree, a plant, or land) Producing much fruit; fertile.
• Producing good or helpful results; productive: "years of fruitful collaboration"; "the two days of talks had been fruitful".

<H3 class="r g0">mul·ti·ply/&#712;m&#601;lt&#601;&#716;pl&#299;/

Verb:Obtain from (a number) another that contains the first number a specified number of times.Adverb:In several different ways or respects: "multiply injured patients".Synonyms:increase - propagate - augment - reproduce - breed

</H3></H3>

 

[SayaOtonashi]

In the bible it's state that children are a gift from god but then it states that it's worse to have children when a father doesn't support his father . Also this can't be a universal rule because paul state marriage is for a loving relationship. Paul star the wife doesnt own her body and husband doesn't own his body. Paul doesn't said for mothr to go and children. Also some women can never have children even do to her health or is bare. God doesn't away bless people with children

 

[daydreamergurl15]

In the bible it's state that children are a gift from god but then it states that it's worse to have children when a father doesn't support his father . Also this can't be a universal rule because paul state marriage is for a loving relationship. Paul star the wife doesnt own her body and husband doesn't own his body. Paul doesn't said for mothr to go and children. Also some women can never have children even do to her health or is bare. God doesn't away bless people with children

In Scripture God deals with every one of these scenarios and never retracted the command "be fruitful and multiply".

 

[SayaOtonashi]

That means all single people have sinned. Jesus never said anything about have many children. Paul never said anything. Christan aren't under the law. What this command be in the 10 commandants where christans aren't even under the law. Paul never married. Jesus never married. Paul as a personal choice said not to married to stay single. That means Paul as sinned. God said its a blessing not a commdant To have children.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

[FONT=&quot]&#8220;behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork.&#8221; [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Zeck 5:9)[/FONT]

One of the most precious thing about the bible is context and I love context...

Zechariah 5:5-11
5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, &#8220;Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.&#8221;

6 So I asked, &#8220;What is it?&#8221; And he said, &#8220;It is a basket that is going forth.&#8221;

He also said, &#8220;This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket&#8221;; 8 then he said, &#8220;This is Wickedness!&#8221; And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.

10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, &#8220;Where are they carrying the basket?&#8221;

11 And he said to me, &#8220;To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.&#8221;​

You might think that it's speaking about Angels because it uses the word "wings" almost all cultures usually describes Angels as having wings...But Angels in Scripture are not described as having "wings" however Living Beings (Creatures), Cherubs and Seraphim in the heavenly hosts have them--[I should note that Scripture also describes God as having wings but I don't know if they mean that metaphorically or an actual description of Him).

This search was done with the NKJV but you can choose any version you like. You'll notice that wings and angels are not associated together. The only time you do see them associated is in Zech 5 and that's because they are describing the women as having wings not that an angel has wings...

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: wings


With the descriptions that the bible gives us about creatures with wings, I would assume these ladies could be Living Creatures, Cherubs or Seraphins. But that's anyone's guest. The bible is pretty silent on the description of Angels in their heavenly appearance. Most of the descriptions we have are Angels in their earthly appearance usually described as taking a form of an earthly man.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

That means all single people have sinned. Jesus never said anything about have many children. Paul never said anything. Christan aren't under the law. What this command be in the 10 commandants where christans aren't even under the law. Paul never married. Jesus never married. Paul as a personal choice said not to married to stay single. That means Paul as sinned. God said its a blessing not a commdant To have children.

All I know is that God told the earth "to be fruitful and multiply" after He created it and then He told Noah and His Sons to repopulate the world, whether that command is in effect or not in your opinion, that is what He asked. This command was given before the old law and if Christ said that it's okay NOT TO BE MARRIED in Matthew 19--and again He gives the exception of why not to be married-- then it will only be logical to assume that you will not "be fruitful and multiply" and He's fine with that. And if He knows that women were/are barren, it also will be logical to realize that they can't have kids. And please realize, I'm talking about this in a marriage relationship, single people shouldn't be having sex outside of marriage.

It obvious that we're still being "fruitful and multiplying", for humans, not everyone is doing it in the communion of marriage. I think we're taking things a little too serious, for Christ lived and was never married, if we consider it a sin not to have kids then Christ sinned so obviously we know that God's got this taken care of.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Christan are under the law of grace. Paul state that in roman 1. Jesus was talking about the they he is giving them

 

[Puptart]

Good post. I agree with you, especially as a child-free Christian.

[FONT=&quot]“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Gen 1:28 )[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]One of the most over-cited and least-understood passages in the Bible is God’s blessing: ‘be fruitful and multiply.’ For many, the primary difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals is that the latter are not able to procreate through sexual intercourse. Does it mean their sexuality contradicts this ‘commandment’? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In answering the “be fruitful and multiply” argument, we need to point out that God’s blessing was never an order to procreate. Though it may involve procreation for some, it means much more than that. We can only understand it as the blessing that it was. The Lord never commanded humanity to procreate. Rather, He blessed and enabled humanity to do something that they could not have done without His blessing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It says “God blessed them…” and not that He commanded them because God accomplishes it through His grace rather than through our sexuality. Though some have presumed to make it a commandment, without His blessing they would be barren and perish. “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Isa 40:24) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To equate heterosexual intercourse with being fruitful is to reduce the grace of God to a sexual act. In that sense, it’s another form of sexual idolatry.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Genesis 1:28 is not a commandment, but a blessing[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. It does not refer to what humans must do to please God, but to what God does for and through humankind…Fertility is not a command but a blessing that God gives to his creatures, to animals as well as humans.”

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The scriptures make it abundantly clear that being fruitful can only come from God: Gen 41:52 - “For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.” Gen 48:4 - “Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people.” Lev 26:9 - “For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.” Psalms 100:3 – “Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Since being fruitful is a blessing - why would we treat it as a commandment that we need to obey, let alone condemn others for not obeying the commandment? If children are a blessing from God - and we can all agree that they are - the proper response is joy and thanksgiving. The proper attitude is not to become so proud as to condemn those who - for whatever reason – have not been similarly blessed with children. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Unjustly condemning those who could not conceive happened quite often in Israel, which is why the scriptures also say, “Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.” (Isa 54:1) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The verse equates being fruitful with receiving God’s blessings, whatever they happen to be. Children are certainly a blessing, though God does not condemn those who haven’t children as if they’d disobeyed a command. Raising children to be good and loving adults is one way of leading a fruitful life, though it certainly isn’t the only way. As Isaiah pointed out - He can give us even greater blessings, so that ‘more are the children of the desolate.’ [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus distinguished between those who bear good fruit and those who do not (Matt 7:17-20) though he wasn’t talking about heterosexuals and homosexuals. He was speaking about the fruit of the Spirit, manifested in doing good works. “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (John 15:5)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]St. Augustine wrote in ‘On Genesis’ concerning the blessing, “we can rightly understand it in a spiritual sense, and assume that only after the fall was it turned into fleshy fertility ... to bring forth spiritual fruits, namely good works and praise to God, in a spiritual relationship."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Living in Christ means being in a fruitful relationship with God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Being a heterosexual parent doesn’t necessarily indicate that you are in that kind of relationship. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There are abusive parents, parents who spoil their children, and parents who have become so obsessed with acquiring money and possessions that they take little responsibility, and reserve very little time, for their children. Consequently, many children are selfish and without compassion, most are materialistic, frequently addicted, and sometimes abusive towards themselves and others. In other words, there are heterosexual parents who know a lot about procreating even though they are producing bad fruit. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]There are also gay and lesbian couples who cannot sexually procreate, yet they are raising children to become loving and tolerant human beings. So it’s not our ability to procreate that matters; what matters is the fruit of our life. Moreover, it’s not measured by how many children we produce, but in whether our efforts have added to the love and peace in the world, or only reinforced all the old divisions and conflicts. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] Raymond C. Van Leeuwen, “Be Fruitful and Multiply” Is This a Command or Blessing? (Christianity Today, November 12, 2001).