Basic Grammar for GT, Courtesy of Mel and GCC

ebia · Jul 17, 2010

We all have our pet niggles, but in the end if it's easily readable and clear that's all I expect on a discussion forum. I'm not trying to write a formal essay and I don't expect other people to either.

We also need to recognise that expectations are cultural and we aren't all coming from the same culture. Expecting people to use whom, which has largely disappeared except in formal English, is inappropriate.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Lie vs. Lay

'To lie' means 'to recline.' The subject is the recipient of the verbal action.

'To lay' means to place something, or to put something on something else. The subject is doing the action to an object.

You do not 'lie' an egg, and you do not 'lay' down to sleep. You lay an egg, and you lie down to sleep. No one says 'lie an egg,' but many people say 'lay down to sleep.' Both are wrong.

This gets particularly tricky in the past tense, because 'lie' becomes 'lay,' and 'lay' becomes 'laid.'

I lie (present) down to sleep. I lay (past) down to sleep.

The hen lay (present) an egg. The hen laid (past) an egg.

Mel and I: Pronouns in Prepositional Phrases

This one really is simple, but people get it wrong all the time. I've been known to get it wrong myself.

"He spoke to Mel and me."

"He spoke to Mel and I."

Which one is correct? The first one.

All you need to do is take out the other person (in this case, 'Mel') and you can see that "He spoke to me" is what you would say, not "He spoke to I."

Actually, the first one is doubly wrong because the word order should be switched. "I" comes last in a strong of prepositional recipients, but "me" comes first.

Thus, in the sentence "Give that to me," if we were to add another recipient, it should read "Give that to me and Mel," not "Give that to Mel and me."

Good vs. Well

This is one of my particular pet peeves. People say 'good' all the freaking time when they actually mean 'well.'

'Good' denotes a moral quality. 'Well' denotes quality in general.

Thus, when someone asks you "How are you today?" and you response "Good!" you are actually saying that you are a good person, not that you find yourself in an agreeable state. "I am good at baseball" should be properly rendered "I play baseball well." Notice that because you cannot say "I am well at baseball," since 'well' cannot modify a 'to be' verb, you have to introduce another more specific verb.

"I speak English good" is particularly hilarious.

Melethiel · Jul 17, 2010

Just a note to all the people saying "if you can understand what I'm saying, what's the difference?" The whole point is, I CAN'T understand what you're saying if you're not writing properly. There have been many, many times when I started reading a post, couldn't make out the grammar, and simply gave up because I had no idea what the person was trying to say.

Moreover, this was meant to be an instructional thread. We understand that people are at different levels of education, so this is meant to be a learning process to make the whole forum experience smoother for everyone. If someone isn't willing to learn, they shouldn't be discussing theology.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Yeah, allow me to follow that up, Mel:

I understand that there are colloquialisms and that everyday speech is not meant to be formal English. To that end, first, this is meant to be a reference guide, not a demand.

But second (technically I shouldn't be starting a sentence with the postpositive conjunction 'but'), I would note that this forum is something in between everyday informal speech and formal written English.

In the first case, we are discussing technical matters of biblical studies, church history, theology, and ethics. These require a degree of precision not normally necessary in everyday conversation.

Second, everyday conversation normally takes place in person, over the phone, or over a video chat like Skype. Where colloquial English with less than proper grammar may be suitable for those forums, this is a text-based forum.

These are no gestures, tones of voices, or facial expression. There is just you, me, and the English language. All we have is our grammar. The written word is the sole means of communication between us on this forum. That is why Mel and I felt this thread was necessary.

We will continue to add additional posts and amend the initial entries as new points of grammar are discussed.

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Mel and I: Pronouns in Prepositional Phrases

This one really is simple, but people get it wrong all the time. I've been known to get it wrong myself.

"He spoke to Mel and me."

"He spoke to Mel and I."

Which one is correct? The first one.

All you need to do is take out the other person (in this case, 'Mel') and you can see that "He spoke to me" is what you would say, not "He spoke to I."

Actually, the first one is doubly wrong because the word order should be switched. "I" comes last in a strong of prepositional recipients, but "me" comes first.

Thus, in the sentence "Give that to me," if we were to add another recipient, it should read "Give that to me and Mel," not "Give that to Mel and me."

Or, "I" is a subject, "me" is an object (receives the action).

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

Are we using US English, or the King's English ?

(Or is it Queen's English ?)

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

Melethiel said:
If someone isn't willing to learn, they shouldn't be discussing theology.

I disagree.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Thekla said:
Are we using US English, or the King's English ?

(Or is it Queen's English ?)

I don't think we've covered anything where US vs. British makes a difference.

Now, "That is he" vs. "That is him," it does make a difference (the former is British, the latter is US), but I purposefully decided not to cover the use of pronouns in conjoined clauses.

Melethiel · Jul 17, 2010

Thekla said:
I disagree.

I wasn't referring only to "willing to learn grammar", but "willing to learn" in general. It goes for any academic discipline; if someone isn't willing to learn, they have no business in the field.

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:3-12

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Oh, hey, look, the Beatitudes. That's nice.

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

Melethiel said:
I wasn't referring only to "willing to learn grammar", but "willing to learn" in general. It goes for any academic discipline; if someone isn't willing to learn, they have no business in the field.

Theology is actually not an academic discipline, but the fruit of relationship to God in prayer.

If Theology requires that one be an intellectual, everyone here should have a PhD.

We can always ask someone to clarify if we are confused.
If this means we must struggle to communicate, this is a blessing; Christianity is an ongoing struggle - not a sort of comfort zone.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Thekla said:
Theology is actually not an academic discipline, but the fruit of relationship to God in prayer.

So why can we get Ph.D.s in the subject?

Theology has always been done in the academy as well as in the church. And while theology is always the fruit of a relationship with God in prayer, it has also always been the case that theology has been done with academic rigor, east and west.

If this means we must struggle to communicate, this is a blessing; Christianity is an ongoing struggle - not a sort of comfort zone.

Is that really what the ongoing struggle is about? Straining to understand someone because they cannot communicate properly?

Last I checked, the ongoing struggle of the Christian faith was about striving for right doctrine, right worship, and right behavior.

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
So why can we get Ph.D.s in the subject?

Theology has always been done in the academy as well as in the church. And while theology is always the fruit of a relationship with God in prayer, it has also always been the case that theology has been done with academic rigor, east and west.

We have many uneducated Saints, theologians, in the east.
You are only considering some of them in your description.

God, theology, cannot be adequately described by any language -- no matter how precise the usage.

Is that really what the ongoing struggle is about? Straining to understand someone because they cannot communicate properly?

Last I checked, the ongoing struggle of the Christian faith was about striving for right doctrine, right worship, and right behavior.

The struggle to communicate, to put aside our preferences, to be humble instead of humiliating the 'other' -- this is a struggle that is included. If we cannot have a bit of this, can we say we have struggled to come to know Him who is so 'completely' other - who is beyond language ?

Christ came down to our level - He was enfleshed, and crucified for us. Can't we crucify ourselves a little for our brother and sister ?

Melethiel · Jul 17, 2010

The struggle to communicate, to put aside our preferences, to be humble instead of humiliating the 'other' -- this is a struggle that is included. If we cannot have a bit of this, can we say we have struggled to come to know Him who is so 'completely' other - who is beyond language ?

Christ came down to our level - He was enfleshed, and crucified for us. Can't we crucify ourselves a little for our brother and sister ?

Does that go both ways? Because if I need to struggle to understand a post, then it would be really nice if the other person would make an effort (struggle, as it were) to make their posts more intelligible.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Thekla said:
We have many uneducated Saints, theologians, in the east.
You are only considering some of them in your description.

There have been many uneducated saints, naturally, great men and women of God who have lived lives of great piety and love.

But the theologians of the East have been great men of learning as well, from Gregory of Nyssa to John Zizioulas.

to be humble instead of humiliating the 'other'

I have never pointed out someone's bad grammar in the midst of a thread except on the one recent occasion when they got on my case for a typo.

Thekla · Jul 17, 2010

Melethiel said:
Does that go both ways? Because if I need to struggle to understand a post, then it would be really nice if the other person would make an effort (struggle, as it were) to make their posts more intelligible.

Perhaps you could ask them to clarify, where the meaning is unclear.
How does one know beforehand someone's capacity to learn, and the length of time required for them to learn these requirements ? How does one know they haven't struggled already ?

The ability to listen, and to understand, someone who does not speak or express themselves in a familiar manner is a useful skill.

Melethiel · Jul 17, 2010

The ability to listen, and to understand, someone who does not speak or express themselves in a familiar manner is a useful skill.

I have communicated with people who spoke a dialect I was not familiar with, or who barely spoke English at all. The difference? All this communication was face to face. Non-verbal cues go a long way. (I have the same difficulty understanding when talking on the phone with someone whom I cannot see.) On a message board, grammar is the ONLY thing we can use to understand the other.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Jul 17, 2010

Thekla said:
How does one know beforehand someone's capacity to learn, and the length of time required for them to learn these requirements ? How does one know they haven't struggled already ?

1. Mel is not a native English speaker. This is not her first language, so I feel that as a native English speaker I should be able to live up to her expectations.

2. All of the these grammar rules are taught by fifth grade.

3. If they are still struggling, that is why we our providing this thread, as a reference guide. We have not and will not go around criticizing other people's poor grammar in the midst of other threads, but we feel that this guide to basic grammar for GT is something we need to offer.

Melethiel · Jul 17, 2010

Furthermore, there are people on these forums who are not from English-speaking countries, and learned English in a formal setting, much as we would learn Spanish or German. They have the right to participate in these discussions as well, but I think I can say that they would have great difficulty understanding colloquial American English.

This is not an American forum, so the communication we use should be the standard that can be understood by everyone.

Basic Grammar for GT, Courtesy of Mel and GCC

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