Bare Knuckle Boxing vs Gloved Boxing

[SuperCloud]

I had a friend who used to compete in Martial Arts tournaments in Asia 40-50 years ago. No protection except for a cup. He also trained in Shotokan Karate in Okinawa - very tedious, technical training. Not like over here, where you can gain the next belt level months after earning your present one.

Okinawan karate in particular is well known for hand conditioning training. And calloused knuckles. Some in MMA and boxing are incorporating this traditional martial arts training into their program. Doing things like wrist push ups (Which we did in Genbukan Ninpo [ninjitsu]). Don't take my word for it, go on Sherdog and look up some threads. Or Ross Boxing website. That dude is a beast and not only can do wrist push ups but can lift himself up with the back of his wrists and onto his knuckles. I tried doing that but I can't in the least. Although, I can do a few wrist push ups (palms facing you and your weight is in the back of your wrists, with fingers of both hands pointing at each other.)

Not all martial arts emphasized hand/wrist conditioning like Okinawan Karate though.

Why boxers never did this is beyond me. But reliance on handwraps became the norm.

 

[SuperCloud]

http://glovesandhandwraps.com/handwrap/hand-wraps-for-mma.html

Why do I need hand wraps?

Simply put: to protect your hands. Hand wraps help protect the bones and tendons in your hands. In addition, they will help support your wrist and thumb.

To help prevent injuries, always wrap your hands before using any type of boxing glove or bag gloves. Make sure you have hand wraps handy when you are trying on boxing gloves or bag gloves that you are thinking about purchasing. They are an important component in the fit of the gloves you choose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrist_wraps

A hand wrap or a wrist wrap is a strip of cloth used by boxers (and participants in other combat sports) to protect the hand and wrist against injuries induced by punching. It is wrapped securely around the wrist, the palm, and the base of the thumb, where it serves to both maintain the alignment of the joints, and to compress and lend strength to the soft tissues of the hand during the impact of a punch.

A hand wrap protects against several common types of injuries that are familiar to most boxers. For instance, it supports the wrist joint, keeping it aligned when the impact of a punch is absorbed by the wrong part of the hand. It also secures the base of the thumb to the hand, thereby reducing the chance of a sprain or fracture that can result from the thumb striking an opponent's elbow. Most importantly, it significantly strengthens the metacarpus, reducing the likelihood of a fracture of one of the metacarpal bones. Such a fracture is often called the "boxer's fracture" -- which is usually a fracture in the neck of the fourth or fifth metacarpal—because of its ubiquity among fighters.

Hand and wrist wraps are used to compress (and keep compressed when hitting) the bones and tissues in the hand. The claim is that such compression allows boxers to hit with greater force than if they did not use them. Boxers claim they feel less pain when hitting so their opponent may feel more pain.

 

[bhsmte]

Been there done that. On both.

The analogy was for the leftist sodomy supporters. Injury occurs with sodomy too. Just ask proctologists. So, to support consensual anal violence whilst condemning consensual boxing violence hits with a little irony. The irony is increased when one appeals to justifying sodomy, anal violence, with the Theory of Evolution (e.g., anal violence was commissioned by "mother nature" [apparently an intelligent design entity] to keep human population growth under control etc.). And yet reject or dismiss fist violence, the development of karate or boxing techniques, as having any connection or explanation within the Theory of Evolution its (e.g., why certain traits survive or even thrive among a particular species).

So, for those that love, clap, and cheer for the consensual anal violence carried out in hetero or gay romances, and connect such "love" to a testament of endurance, then the Shoalin Buddhist monk with his Kung Fu violence is kind of similar in his feats of endurance. The boxer in his or her feats of endurance.



I can't say what it feels like to fly a plane (though I can say how it feels to fly as a passenger). Never done it. I've never scuba dived, so, I can't much speak on that either. Even though I've street fought with bare knuckles, it was never against high quality opponents like Irish bare knuckle fighters with wrapped hands. So, I can't speak much on bare knuckle fighting. I've never had both legs amputated and been confined to a wheelchair for years. So, I can't speak much on that.

What have I experienced that I can speak on?

Well... being sodomized. Many, many, many times wrapping my hands and putting on boxing gloves (although, my handwraps have been cotton and not the Mexican style with some elastic quality--therefore I personally can not review the difference). Wearing boxing gloves without handwraps and striking. Being shot multiple times with one in the abdomen (I know what that recovery from an ab gun shot feels like. Specifically from a .40). And for the record... what you see on TV shows, sitcoms or movies, pertaining to recovering from gun shot injuries is nothing even close to real life. At least not ab shots. But 9 out of 10 Western adults would probably vehemently object and accuse any person that actually recovered from ab gun shot surgeries of trying to be a "know it all." In real life you end up with a long vertical scar down the center of your abs. I know in my case they had me "under" for several days they said, and had my intestines pulled out. It's not simply taking prongs, putting in a hole, going 1 inch deep and pulling out a bullet. Wrapping the dude up and he jumps back on his feet and runs after bad guys again.

I know as a fact wrapping your hands--at least with a good wrapping--protects your hands. And not only that it allows you to punch harder. Been there done that (numerous times in this case--even with very novice experience).

Are you feeling ok?

 

[SuperCloud]

^Sherdog is a very popular MMA website. It caters to kickboxing and boxing discussion too. By popular I mean professional combat athletes have posted on that thing.

If you want to talk about "cocky" people go on there. I'm like a super humble dude relative to the high testosterone driven arguing going on over on that thing. Not just arguing but personal attacks people launch at one another.

 

[SuperCloud]

Are you feeling ok?

Fine.

But I'll tell you what... why don't you go on Sherdog online discussion forum and insinuate handwraps don't protect fighters hands. Yeah, I'll stand back as a wave of men (probably women too) descend upon you like sharks in an ocean.

My pointing out that handwraps also protected those Irish bare knuckle fighters hands was not an attack. That's your perception. Like a person lightly tapping another on the arms. If that's the meanest dudes such a person has met. Then such a person has a perception of that dude being "mean" beyond belief. However, some of those people on Sherdog indeed would attack you verbally, making me look like Mother Teresa.

I was never attacked on Sherdog. Particularly because I posted in the gentle way I do here. I never made statements like "You are 100% correct," unless it was some known universal truth. Such statements like that on Sherdog can spark flame wars.

But I got tired of the over-the-top bravado, flame wars (not involving me), and left the site pretty quickly. Every blue moon I'll google up the site to scroll through 1 or 2 threads.

 

[SuperCloud]

Ross of RossBoxing.Com has forgotten more about the sport of boxing than I've ever known about the sport of boxing. While I'm very novice he's a very journeyman person that I think now trains boxers.

Anyways... these are not my words but his and other people posting comments under his blog.

http://rosstraining.com/blog/2014/02/01/hand-warm-up-with-pushups/

It seems like a lifetime ago that I was a young fighter who was sidelined with hand and wrist injuries. At the time, I didn’t know anything about hand training so it wasn’t something I did. As a result, wrapping my hands became a complex process. My trainer would always need extra time to perform the job. Once they were wrapped and taped, I still had to be cautious with my hands. With all the fractures and sprains, I always felt like I was rolling the dice when I punched.

Twenty years later and my hands have never felt better. I now take hand and wrist training seriously; not only for myself but more importantly for the fighters I train. If I can prevent even one athlete from making the same mistakes I made, I will be grateful beyond words.

Ironically, since posting the brief demonstration above, I don’t think I’ve ever read so many emails that have questioned the safety of an exercise. I’ve read everything from jokes that my wrists will snap to statements that it is irresponsible to recommend these exercises. Based on the volume of such comments, I believe it is a useful topic to discuss. The last thing I want is for someone to be dissuaded from an exercise based on an uninformed opinion.

Some posters comments:

Brendan says:
February 1, 2014 at 6:56 pm


1,000’s of martial artists have done wrist, fist and fingertip pushups for hundreds of years, and I don’t you see an unusually high percentage of Okinawans with horrible wrist injuries.

Neville says:
February 1, 2014 at 10:01 pm


As soon as I saw this video on Facebook I knew you’d be getting inundated with emails about how unsafe it was. What astounds me is that people an clearly see it’s done you no harm.

Samer Ibrahim says:
February 2, 2014 at 8:29 am


I think with the wrist pushups it’s just the first time people have seen that. They don’t realize that it the gymnastics world this seems to be rather common practice. I personally don’t have the flexibility after I broke my hand but I’m working towards it…

 

[FreeSpirit74]

Okinawan karate in particular is well known for hand conditioning training. And calloused knuckles. Some in MMA and boxing are incorporating this traditional martial arts training into their program. Doing things like wrist push ups (Which we did in Genbukan Ninpo [ninjitsu]). Don't take my word for it, go on Sherdog and look up some threads. Or Ross Boxing website. That dude is a beast and not only can do wrist push ups but can lift himself up with the back of his wrists and onto his knuckles. I tried doing that but I can't in the least. Although, I can do a few wrist push ups (palms facing you and your weight is in the back of your wrists, with fingers of both hands pointing at each other.)

Not all martial arts emphasized hand/wrist conditioning like Okinawan Karate though.

Why boxers never did this is beyond me. But reliance on handwraps became the norm.

The guy I was referring to used to make his students do thumb-and-fingertip push ups. He trained them the same way that he had been trained - endless repetition, constantly going back to the basics. When they went to competitions they were so well-trained that they were beating their opponents (who were at the same belt rank) with enough ease that it looked like they were staying at a lower level just so they could win more. But it wasn't that, it was because of the rigorous training they had received.

 

[High Fidelity]

^Notice in the 1st video with the Irish... there are a lot of children in the audience.

They're about as Irish as Boston.

The irony is that most of them have never even been to Ireland.

I don't think it's a matter of ethics, though. If two people want to inflict harm amongst each other and it's volitional, have at it.

The only time it becomes a matter of ethics is when you turn up at the hospital straight after for medical treatment because, shocker, you got injured fighting.

 

[dgiharris]

It's counter intuitive, but MMA has LESS injuries than boxing.

A lot in this thread are focusing on smaller gloves and hand wrapping and hitting harder yada yada yada...

Actually, those are all red herrings as far as injuries go. The reason why Boxing has more injuries than MMA is because the bigger gloves allow for more repeated hits to the head (and hands). You have to think in terms of physics. In MMA, the smaller gloves allows for more pressure (force per unit area) to impact the head. All things being equal, if you compare an MMA punch to a boxing punch you would notice that the MMA punch exerts more pressure and a more effective momentum transfer due to the smaller gloves. What this means is that MMA punches will be more effective in causing short term damage and knockouts.

Boxing gloves on the other hand spread out the force over larger areas. Not only that, but the cushioning reduces the acceleration and efficiency of energy transfer. So, the lack of efficiency increases the amount of hits a boxer can take versus their MMA counterpart before being rendered unconscious. Whereas an MMA fighter typically takes 30 medium punches and 8 BIG punches to the face during 3 rounds and is eventually knocked out, a Boxer takes 300 medium punches and 80 BIG punches to the face over 12 rounds and is eventually knocked out. In effect, the boxer easily takes an order of magnitude more punches to the face/head than an MMA fighter. However, if you add up the respective energies and momentums etc of all the punches, it works out that a boxer has taken easily 5, 6, or even 8 times more "damage" than an MMA fighter.

SO it is kinda ironic. Harder punches by the smaller gloves actually lead to less long term damage than bigger gloves. With smaller gloves you get hit 40 times or less over 3 rounds whereas with bigger gloves you get hit 400 times over 12 rounds... Allowing that boxing gloves are 75% as efficient as MMA gloves and that is still a factor of 7 times more damage in boxing than MMA long term.

(Lastly, the above math is just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) I don't have hard numbers, but the logic is sound)

 

[SuperCloud]

It's counter intuitive, but MMA has LESS injuries than boxing.

If that's true, it comes as a surprise to me just as when I was surprised to learn that American football results on more deaths, has a higher death rate, than boxing does.

Of course, after thinking about it, it really shouldn't surprise o much that the death rate is higher in American football. Likewise, since MMA spends so much time on the ground (and kicking to legs too) grappling, it really shouldn't surprise me that MMA would result in less *head* injures.

(I'll hazard a guess though and there are other certain kinds of injuries more common in MMA than in boxing, due to arm-bars, leg locks and so forth. I know some MMA people have had their arms broken in matches, refusing to tap out I guess.)

A lot in this thread are focusing on smaller gloves and hand wrapping and hitting harder yada yada yada...

Actually, those are all red herrings as far as injuries go. The reason why Boxing has more injuries than MMA is because the bigger gloves allow for more repeated hits to the head (and hands). You have to think in terms of physics. In MMA, the smaller gloves allows for more pressure (force per unit area) to impact the head. All things being equal, if you compare an MMA punch to a boxing punch you would notice that the MMA punch exerts more pressure and a more effective momentum transfer due to the smaller gloves. What this means is that MMA punches will be more effective in causing short term damage and knockouts.

Boxing gloves on the other hand spread out the force over larger areas. Not only that, but the cushioning reduces the acceleration and efficiency of energy transfer. So, the lack of efficiency increases the amount of hits a boxer can take versus their MMA counterpart before being rendered unconscious. Whereas an MMA fighter typically takes 30 medium punches and 8 BIG punches to the face during 3 rounds and is eventually knocked out, a Boxer takes 300 medium punches and 80 BIG punches to the face over 12 rounds and is eventually knocked out. In effect, the boxer easily takes an order of magnitude more punches to the face/head than an MMA fighter. However, if you add up the respective energies and momentums etc of all the punches, it works out that a boxer has taken easily 5, 6, or even 8 times more "damage" than an MMA fighter.

SO it is kinda ironic. Harder punches by the smaller gloves actually lead to less long term damage than bigger gloves. With smaller gloves you get hit 40 times or less over 3 rounds whereas with bigger gloves you get hit 400 times over 12 rounds... Allowing that boxing gloves are 75% as efficient as MMA gloves and that is still a factor of 7 times more damage in boxing than MMA long term.

(Lastly, the above math is just a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) I don't have hard numbers, but the logic is sound)

The laws of physics are very important as you note. They explain most of everything related to sports injury. Of course, the individual's own physiology and anatomy, health and build you might put it another way, is just as crucial. I'm missing a left kidney due--loss to a bullet injury--so, a left shot aimed at and hitting where a person would expect my left kidney to be, won't in fact result in kidney shot for me. Or per-existing conditions in a person can lead to x injury or in some cases even death. Such as when your hear about young boys or young men falling dead on basketball courts during basketball games they're playing in.

Although, handwraps are not a red herring in terms of hand protection. (Albeit, some peeps like those in Okinawan Karate do lost of hand conditioning training to developing incredibly strong hands that don't injure easily.)

 

[SuperCloud]

^Addendum to last paragraph of post #30.

Granted, it's a promotional video for a sports product, but I think it's informative nonetheless pertaining to a martial artsist in MMA who is elite and has had hand injuries from training and/or competition.