Bar owner on stage every sunday?

[Sweet Pea]

He wouldn't be permitted to do that at my church. Leadership should be above reproach.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

agreed...

Everyone knows what alcohol can do....and then to say "well, Jesus was speaking about drunkards, not the casual drinker"...Well, what do you expect the bar owner to do? Have everyone fill out a questionaire to know who he can sell to or take a breathalizer test before they leave?....And just b/c it is not a full fledge bar does not mean that people cannot get drunk in there.

See below.

Surely there is more sense to not compare Jesus turning water into wine AT A WEDDING vs. a man selling alcohol for a profit....Do we truly not understand the whole point behind that scripture? God gave a MIRACLE!

No one argues that the main point of the water to wine account is first and foremost a miracle. However, it was put to use. Following your logic to its end, alcohol is ok at a wedding so long as no one sells it. I'll keep that in mind for my wedding.

No, drinking in itself in not inheritantly evil;

however, as a Christian, knowing all the effects of drinking alcohol, I do not think in any way it should be condoned in a public manner for profit. WOnder how much money would be lost if he sold wings and coke?

Theres that free alcohol logic again. I betcha he does sell coke as well.

I feel it is necessary to look outside of the box at the WHOLE picture...and not just about a man making a living.

The whole picture of scripture doesnt condemn anything but drunkards and the whole picutre of the water to wine miracle is that people drank it and found it was top of the line. Did the Lord tempt people with sin inadvertantly?

Is being a secretary okay?
What about being a secretary at an abortion clinic?

Totally different. Abortion is just wrong anyway you slice the pie and one should not work toward that goal. Having a beer isnt evil in and of itself.

And anyone that owns a grocery store, a convenience store, a bowling alley, whatever, has the OPTION to sell alcohol. In fact right now in our dry town, the local owner of a convenience store is trying to begin selling alcohol. He got enough petitions to bring it to a vote....but the majority of the church is against it b/c of the evil that comes along with alcohol and the potential buyers.

If one legitimatly sells it are they sinning?

No one is questioning this man and his salvation or relationship with God. The OP simply asked for advice.

So far this man is not worthy to lead someone in song to bless God because he is a wolf who makes people stumble. But if you say so.

Let me leave you with this...if this were not a stumbling block, then why do we have a young individual questioning this matter?

No one said alcohol is not a stumbling block, however the OP compared the bar owner to a crack or heroin dealer. "Is this any differnt than selling crack or herion ?would they let a crack dealer on the praise and worship team? anybody have any input on the subject?" There is a complete difference. Crack is evil. Heroin is evil. Why? Because, the sole purpose is for people to lose self-control and are automaically intoxicated by such things. Light drinking is not the same, nor is selling alcohol. Not everyone who drinks gets drunk and anyone who does has issues. The bar owner cannot be his "patrons keeper."

Why not ban your local pharmacy from selling certain kinds of cough syrup? It contains a chemical called DXM, if one drinks a bottle of it they will get high and hallucinate. Does the pharmacist cause people to stumble? In principal it is the same. Just as cough syrup not meant to be abused, alcohol is not meant to be abused either. Do everything you do to the glory of God. Do not be a bad steward and get drunk on wine.

 

[P_G]

Is being a secretary okay?
What about being a secretary at an abortion clinic?

Had a person disfellowshiped who did just that

PG

 

[mesue]

I used to be an alcoholic and when I was saved That was the end of it.

Now people are asking me to go here for diffrent get togethers to support this business ,

I'm sorry but it just goes against me, I'm not judging , I just need some advice for me. I'm not trying to get him off stage,and I'm not talking to people in the church about this, thats why I'm here to get your oppions on the matter without stirring up trouble in the church. I dont want to hurt anybody in anyway.

I totally agree Mesue. This is why you should not put anything in their way. Do not drink in front of them,

do not invite them somewhere where they will be tempted.

I struggle with lust, shall I insist that all women stay away from me? In the same way, shall we keep this barkeep from serving as a minister of music? No of course not. No one has to impose upon their brother alcohol.

 

[mesue]

Is being a secretary okay?
What about being a secretary at an abortion clinic?

I have to ask, then, is it okay for me to work at an abortion clinic as an RN?
After all, I'm not in the clinic during church. I'm not the one actually killing the baby, I'm just checking the blood pressure. I'm just doing my job, my trade, my profession.

Had a person disfellowshiped who did just that
PG

I agree Pastor.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

2 quotes[/font]

You dont have to goto his joint and you definitly dont have to have another drink. No one should force you to go either and dont be afraid to tell those who insist why you dont want to go [its a powerful testimony]. Plus they probably dont understand.

.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Had a person disfellowshiped who did just that

PG

Would you as a pastor, disfellowship this bar owner?

 

[arunma]

On one hand, the Bible doesn't prohibit drinking; it prohibits drunkenness. However, I've got to agree with Mesue. For the sake of the teetotalers in the congregation, it's not a good idea for a bar owner to be on the worship team.

And now that it's been mentioned, I also don't think a person should be on the worship team if he owns a theatre that plays R-rated movies. Not that all R-rated movies are bad, but again, it's a stumbling block.

 

[RED that's ME]

I think some are picking at straws here. It comes down to whether you think drinking is wrong or not.
A Bar owner is selling alcohol purposely and even though he might say he is not doing wrong he is enabling people to get drunk, possible drunk drivers, cause physical harm to their bodies as well as causing physical harm to others. It also causes family problem issues. IMO there is NOTHING good about consuming alcohol.
Trying to justify doing/causing others to do wrong is not right.

We all will have to stand before the Lord one day and answer for every word and deed.
We will answer for causing others to stumble.

 

[P_G]

Would you as a pastor, disfellowship this bar owner?

Please don't think that disfellowshipping comes as an easy act or that it is a willy nilly thing

The answer is maybe

I don't have enough information to give an opinion

but if it is nothing but a bar
and he would not change it
would not sell it

then the answer is yes

PG

 

[MbiaJc]

I think it is fine. While it would be hard for me to watch people get drunk (which isnt the sole purpose of a bar) I dont think he is doing anything wrong. This is his trade why should he change it?

Now, if it was a nudie bar or he promotes getting drunk, thats a different story.

So by this are you saying an assion should not change his ocupation, if he gets saved, because its his trade?

 

[P_G]

You know
There is some cost to becoming a Christian
You may have to leave your old trade along with many other things of your old life.

I think that Jesus regularly said simply to follow him.

PG

 

[aReformedPatriot]

So by this are you saying an assion should not change his ocupation, if he gets saved, because its his trade?

I dont know what that is? However, it would be irresponsible to read into what I've said that one should keep on doing what they do when they become a Christian, no matter what it is. This is not true. I would certainly not say to a stripper "Great you've got Jesus now! Do your thing to the Glory of the Lord" thats heresy and i would welcome a firm slap if I would ever say such a thing. The same for an assassin (if thats what your saying). Murder for hire is a crime and I do not condone it nor any other of the logical implications which can stem from your pressupposition.
______

That being said I am willing to drop this. I had typed out more stuff that I was going to post but I have decided not to. I feel it is truth what I have written out and I sad that some of you would cease fellowship with this person.

That being said, can we pray for the OP and for this bar owner? For the OP and his freedom lets praise God and pray for continued strength as addiction is hard to overcome. For the barkeep, that he would do God's will whatever it may be.

- Mark

 

[RED that's ME]

Mark I didnt say we should stop trying to help with this person I said they shouldn't be in leadership for sure. A person like that IMO is living in "open sin" and the Bible is clear on how to deal with it in Matthew 18:15-17.
He is purposely trying to cause others to sin by selling alcohol to them. Our part as believers is to pray for them and try to restore them.

Here's a good website article on excommunication:
http://www.geocities.com/k9ocu/Discipline-Doctrine.htm#Excommunication

 

[mesue]

... I feel it is truth what I have written out and I sad that some of you would cease fellowship with this person.

Who said anything about not fellowshipping?
I just said he shouldn't be in a leadership role.
Is not agreeing with someone not fellowshiping?