Baptizm

[Montanaman]

See thread #8.

Thread #8 was pure sophistry.

 

[DeaconDean]

But the bible does not say that baptism is for making a "statement", Peter said it is for the "remission of sins", Acts 2:38. One cannot be saved without having his sins remitted, and baptism remits sins, so that makes it essential to salvation.

Brother, your quote shows one flaw:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

Perhaps it is my Baptist upbringing, but you obviously do not subscribe to the Holy Spirit working within the sinner before they are baptized.

My Bible tells me:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -Jn. 16:8

Jesus promised that when He departed, the Comforter would come. And He would "reprove the world of sin,." That word "reprove" is from the Greek root word "elegcw" which means to put to proof, to test, to convict. What Jesus said was that the Comforter would come and convict the sinner of three things, of sin, personal sin; "of righteousness" because the righteousness that God requires of us we cannot provide; "of judgment:" because we have sin in our lives and because we stand condemned for our sin, He convicts us of the judgment due us. The Holy Spirit is working in us prior to being baptized. And it is the Holy Spirit which regenerates the sinner so that they can believe and have faith. So when Peter said:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

How can we receive the Holy Spirit from baptism when He is already in the regenerated person?

That is a strawman.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Thread #8 was pure sophistry.

I am not deceiving anyone or arguing. It is there in black and white, if you care to read and understand the greek words in the scripture. That is the only way it became clear to me.

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Yes they do. Original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” ( Mark 16:16)

An infant is not capable of understanding the Gospel of Jesus and therefore cannot believe. Only those who are old enough to understand the gospel and accept Jesus as saviour should be baptized.

 

[DeaconDean]

I can provide dozens of quotes that state that Baptism is necessary. However, you cannot provide ONE that says, "Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone."

How about:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" -Eph. 2:8

We are saved by grace through faith. It is by grace alone based on our faith in the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is by God's grace we are saved. For it was God's grace that provided a Savior who died for us sinners, when we rightly deserved the cross.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[CouldiEver]

Is water baptizm necessary for salvation?

No; Jesus said simply and authoritatively that "For God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him and is baptized will not perish but have eternal life." Right? No ... it says "For God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life." If baptism is that essential, then why didn't Jesus or any of the other Apostles claim that it was? And what of the criminal on the cross who converted prior to his death? He wasn't baptized, yet Jesus told him that he would be in Paradise with Him on that day.

Those who claim that baptism is essential to receive salvation have basically said that the blood of Jesus is not enough to cleanse us from all evil, impurity, and sin, i.e. what Jesus did on the cross is not enough to save us ... which is contrary to the words of Peter, when he said that "for you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom He paid was not mere gold or silver. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God." In other words, our salvation was purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ alone.

The Apostle John also tells us in 1 John 5:13 that we can know that we are saved through our faith alone in Jesus Christ.

People get baptized because of their salvation, not the other way around. I have been a Christian for as long as I can remember, yet I have only recently been baptized because I wanted to make a public stance and say that I'm living for God; that I'm laying down my life and that I'll take up my cross and follow Him.

As for the verse in John 3 where Jesus is saying that we must be born of water and of the Spirit, it isn't a reference to baptism, because at this point, Christian baptism hadn't even started, and we must keep in mind that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel's Jews, who had no concept of the idea of baptism that was yet to be instituted by the church in the future. Ezekiel 36:24 gives us the correct understanding for this passage, as an article by the Bible Bulletin Board which I found explains. They say, and I agree, that it is the concept of cleansing that occurs at the point of regeneration and salvation.

So, put simply, Jesus told Nicodemus that he must have the promised cleansing and the implanting of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

One reason to reject this is because of what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman:

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." -Jn 4:10-14

Jesus is the living water, whosoever is not born of His living water may well be what is talked about in Jn. 3:5

And to further this:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -Jn. 16:8

This verse tells us that the Holy Spirit is already working within the sinner to bring them to grace, so how is it:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

How is it that one must be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit when it is already working from within before repentance?

And you have an incorrect reading of Romans 6:4:

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." -Romans 6:4-6

It is His death that we are baptized into and raised up, coming up out of the water, so that we walk in newness of life. As Christ died on the cross, so we go under the water to show we died with Him. And as Christ came up out of the water, so our emergence up from the water shows that Christ arose from the dead, we arise with Him, into a new life wherewith we are no longer servants of sin. It is our symbolic act that we do to proclaim our faith in the ressurected Savior. And no where in the scriptures is there the proclimation that baptism saves. In fact the scriptures say:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" -Eph. 2:8

And what did Jesus need to be baptized for? Did He have any sin He needed to be washed of? No, He set the example for us to follow. Because He did, we should.

But, why are we agruing this here? Is there not a forum for this already?

I'm sorry, but personally, I hold to my Baptist views of Baptism. If you would like, visit Sacrament/Ordinance Theology. I'm sure there are those in there that would like to debate this. Anyhow...

God Bless

Till all are one.

Please make this clear to me. Are you saying you reject the teachings of the Apostles and the early Church Fathers in favor of the much later teaching of the Baptist denomination? This is a rather new interpretation.
Could you explain why you would choose this teaching over the other?

I am asking this in a sincere desire to understand and with deep respect.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Only if you interpret it literally.

I notice many of you pick and choose which scriptures MUST be taken literally and which should not.

This is very very profound to me because I wonder how you know? Why should you know better than the Church Fathers?

I am trying really hard to understand this. When I was a Protestant, I had little knowledge of Church history and none at all of the Early Fathers. I simply believed what I was taught in Sunday School, by family members and the Protestant Pastor. I read and interpreted scripture the way they told me.
It was only later, studying the early Church Fathers that I learned what was taught by the Apostles who were taught by our Lord.

Many hear have some teaching in Church history and seem to have read a bit from the Church Fathers.

Please explain how you (personally) know which scriptures you should take literally and which you should interpret and how, exactly they should be interpreted.

Please do not say by the Holy Spirit as I and many of my Catholic brothers and sisters are also Spirit filled. I am as guided by the Holy Spirit as you are. I want to understand the question, please.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Doesn't get much simpler than that.

All of this confusion!!! Confusion just cannot be of God.

I can surely see why Jesus left us a TEACHING CHURCH. One with Apostolic succession and successive teaching.

How can there be so many different opinions regarding Baptism? Spirit of Division, for sure.

Someone once asked (over 2000 years ago) about understanding Scripture. They were told that you must be taught.

AMEN to that Word.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

My Bible tells me:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -Jn. 16:8

Jesus promised that when He departed, the Comforter would come. And He would "reprove the world of sin,." That word "reprove" is from the Greek root word "elegcw" which means to put to proof, to test, to convict. What Jesus said was that the Comforter would come and convict the sinner of three things, of sin, personal sin; "of righteousness" because the righteousness that God requires of us we cannot provide; "of judgment:" because we have sin in our lives and because we stand condemned for our sin, He convicts us of the judgment due us. The Holy Spirit is working in us prior to being baptized. And it is the Holy Spirit which regenerates the sinner so that they can believe and have faith. So when Peter said:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

I like this scripture but it only leads to more questions.

The Holy Spirit has been in the world for over 2000 years and taking the way you put it here, by now, we should all be Christians.

You know as well as I do that much of the world does not know Jesus at all or practices a Religion completely void of Him. Then some know that He lived and see Him in a different way than we do, Jews, Muslims, and even Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons.

The Holy Spirit is with us, and leading the Church to all truth but what Church? You can see clearly here, that even the greater Christian Church cannot agree about Baptism.

Your arguments make me all the stronger in my belief in the Apostolic Church.

Some of you accept being Baptised more than once but still claim they profess the Creed which clearly states, "One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins..."

 

[jmacvols]

As has been indicated, infants are not innocent but are "brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5) because of original sin.

I'm sure infant baptism has been debated many times on the forum. I think there are good arguments for or against it. As evidence in favor of it, whole households were baptized in Acts, such as in the case the households of Lydia and the Philippians jailer. In the case of the jailer, I've heard it argued (on another forum) that he was likely a deployed soldier away from his family (so children would not have been in his household, or so it is argued). That still leaves the household of Lydia. In this case, there is no mention of anyone being excluded from the baptism in this household because they were too young to believe. Since this goes unmentioned, I think it's fair to argue that infants or young children could have been baptized with the rest of the household.

In Mk 16:16 Jesus made both belief and baptism prerequisites to salvation, this implies that one have the capability, use of reason, to believe, which infants do not. One person cannot believe/do obedience for another. One has to be able to believe/have faith before being baptized and both before salvation, this is the order of things in Mk 16:16. For one to be baptized without having faith is not pleasing to God Heb 11:6. Infants cannot come to God with faith nor can they diligently seek Him. So those baptized must have faith or that baptism is not pleasing to God and there will be no salvation without both faith and baptism.

As far as infants being in these households is speculation. Even if there were infants there, they could not be baptized per my above paragraph. Acts 16:32 Paul spoke to "all that were in his house". Can you picture Paul holding and preaching to an infant that is not even capable of understanding a word he is saying, much less not capable of believing?

As far as Psalms 51, David is using figurative poetic, not literal language. THe language allows for him to be speaking about his mother's sin, or that he was born into world of sin. In Psalms 58:3 David says the sinner 'goes astray', which shows that sin is not inherited from Adam, but comes from the individual's on shortcomings. Gen 8:21 man's heart is evil from his youth, not at conception or birth.

I agree that faith will result in ongoing repentance or obedience, but would argue that this is the result of or the outgrowth of faith taken root in the heart which alone saves.

After the church began in Acts 2, no one was ever told that 'faith alone' saves, just the opposite is said- James 2:24.

While I think baptism is commanded, I think that it's better to view it more as a blessing to be received in addition to faith and less as something we do in obedience. Viewing it more as something we do in obedience seems to unintentionally contribute to the idea that we are checking off a check box on a list.

To believe in Christ is a command. At the same time, I think it's something we can not help but do out of conviction of our sin and knowledge of the truth of Christ's Death and Resurrection. At the same time, even faith to believe is a gift.

Belief is commanded, should it be 'checked off' like baptism on your list? Both are commanded so both must be obeyed. What's the result to those that disobey the command to believe? Lost. Why would the result be any different for those that disobey the command to be baptized? Both are commanded and cannot be viewed any other way and failure to obey the Lord's command is eternal punishment. Water baptism is the only place where the blood of Christ washes away sin, Rev 1:5. "Faith alone" or a "sinner's prayer" does not access the blood of Christ.

 

[jmacvols]

See thread #8.

One has to hear the gospel, Rom 10:17
One has to believe, Jn 3:16
One has to repent, Acts 2:38; Lk 13:3,5
One has to confess, Rom 10:9
One has to be water baptized Mk 16:16, Acts 2:38
One has to be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10

 

[Benedicta00]

No, but you will find those that say yes. No it isn't required for salvation. Faith in Christ and that He was resurrected is needed to be believed for salvation. We get baptised because we are told to. To show our fellowship with the Lord. To make a public statement.

Welcome to the forums by the way!

Tapero

The bible says that where?

 

[jmacvols]

Brother, your quote shows one flaw:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

Perhaps it is my Baptist upbringing, but you obviously do not subscribe to the Holy Spirit working within the sinner before they are baptized.

My Bible tells me:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -Jn. 16:8

Jesus promised that when He departed, the Comforter would come. And He would "reprove the world of sin,." That word "reprove" is from the Greek root word "elegcw" which means to put to proof, to test, to convict. What Jesus said was that the Comforter would come and convict the sinner of three things, of sin, personal sin; "of righteousness" because the righteousness that God requires of us we cannot provide; "of judgment:" because we have sin in our lives and because we stand condemned for our sin, He convicts us of the judgment due us. The Holy Spirit is working in us prior to being baptized. And it is the Holy Spirit which regenerates the sinner so that they can believe and have faith. So when Peter said:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38

How can we receive the Holy Spirit from baptism when He is already in the regenerated person?

That is a strawman.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The Holy Spirit operates through the word, and it is the word/gospel that saves, Rom 1:16, James 1:21. The Holy Spirit does not operate in a miraculous way separate and apart from the word. The Holy Spirit reproves thru the word. A person is capable of reading the bible, understanding the gospel and can obey it. Humans are not depraved, Calvin was wrong about this. If one has to be "regenerated" beforehand, how then does God decide whom to 'regenerate' and whom not to 'regenerate'? The 'unregenerated' will be lost due to God's fault for not 'regenerating' them. Lastly, the "comforter" was promised only to the apostles, Acts 1:1-6, not you nor me nor anyone else. And the order of Acts 2:38, one does not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after they repent and are baptized.

 

[Benedicta00]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” ( Mark 16:16)

An infant is not capable of understanding the Gospel of Jesus and therefore cannot believe. Only those who are old enough to understand the gospel and accept Jesus as saviour should be baptized.

So in other words, you think we earn it.


And is baptized. that's the key.

And we know a baby is not capable ...so what? He's not guilty of any personal evil either, only Adam's sin which is not his fault or guilt. The only he is guilty of is being born to a race who was cut off from grace.

Grace is a free gift and God gave me the right to ask for it to be given to my child.

That of course doesn't automatically mean my child will not have to accept the gift when he comes into his own.

So yes, we as adults come to believe and we are baptized and just like the Eunuch in Acts 8 was a changed man after he came up out the water, not after he believed with all his heart, so are we changed after we come out the water.

35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.

36And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?

37And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him.

39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.

 

[UBERROGO]

yes, with a but.

 

[jmacvols]

How about:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" -Eph. 2:8

We are saved by grace through faith. It is by grace alone based on our faith in the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is by God's grace we are saved. For it was God's grace that provided a Savior who died for us sinners, when we rightly deserved the cross.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The bible give proof that the Ephesian's faith included water baptism. (Note that Eph 2:8 does not say 'saved by "faith alone"'. The word alone does not appear in that verse, one has to add it to the verse and adding is tampering.)

1)from Eph 1:1-9, we can see that the Ephesians were spiritually located 'in Christ' or "in Him". The only way to get into Christ is by baptism, Gal 3:27. No verse whatsoever says "faith alone" or saying a "sinners prayer" puts one into Christ, only water baptism can accomplish this. So for those at Ephesus to be "in Christ" they must have been water baptized.

2)From Acts 19 Paul meets men from Ephesus that only knew of John and was baptized with his baptism after it had expired, they had not heard of Christ's message. After Paul tells them of Christ, he baptizes them "in the name of the Lord", v5. This baptism "in the name of the Lord" is the same baptism of Acts 2:38: 10:47,48, which is water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

3)harmonizing verses:

Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26--washing of water>>>>>>cleansed

From the above, saved is the same as cleansed. Since the bible does not contradict itself and since there is only one way to be saved, no other, then their faith must have included washing of water which is a reference to water baptism. If one argues this, then one is saying the bible does not harmonize and that there is more than one way to be saved.

 

[spiritwarrior37]

So in other words, you think we earn it.


And is baptized. that's the key.

And we know a baby is not capable ...so what? He's not guilty of any personal evil either, only Adam's sin which is not his fault or guilt. The only he is guilty of is being born to a race who was cut off from grace.

Grace is a free gift and God gave me the right to ask for it to be given to my child.

That of course doesn't automatically mean my child will not have to accept the gift when he comes into his own.

So yes, we as adults come to believe and we are baptized and just like the Eunuch in Acts 8 was a changed man after he came up out the water, not after he believed with all his heart, so are we changed after we come out the water.

When Jesus said, “ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” ( Mark 16:16), what did He mean? Did He actually mean we must believe and be baptized to be saved? Many would have you believe this to be true. The word believeth is the Greek is pisteusas (from pisteuo), an aorist participle referring to one who has believed at some time in the past. Also baptistheis, translated “ is baptized,” is an aorist participle but in the passive voice. This form refers to an act of outward obedience, in this case, baptism. Therefore, the correct translation here should be stated, “ He who believed and was baptized shall be saved.”
This is also made clear in Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace are ye saved through faith.”

Consider the following. Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” And also 1 Thess.4:14 “ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.”

Consider also John 3:16. There is no mention of Baptism here.

 

[DeaconDean]

The bible give proof that the Ephesian's faith included water baptism. (Note that Eph 2:8 does not say 'saved by "faith alone"'. The word alone does not appear in that verse, one has to add it to the verse and adding is tampering.)

1)from Eph 1:1-9, we can see that the Ephesians were spiritually located 'in Christ' or "in Him". The only way to get into Christ is by baptism, Gal 3:27. No verse whatsoever says "faith alone" or saying a "sinners prayer" puts one into Christ, only water baptism can accomplish this. So for those at Ephesus to be "in Christ" they must have been water baptized.

2)From Acts 19 Paul meets men from Ephesus that only knew of John and was baptized with his baptism after it had expired, they had not heard of Christ's message. After Paul tells them of Christ, he baptizes them "in the name of the Lord", v5. This baptism "in the name of the Lord" is the same baptism of Acts 2:38: 10:47,48, which is water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

3)harmonizing verses:

Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26--washing of water>>>>>>cleansed

From the above, saved is the same as cleansed. Since the bible does not contradict itself and since there is only one way to be saved, no other, then their faith must have included washing of water which is a reference to water baptism. If one argues this, then one is saying the bible does not harmonize and that there is more than one way to be saved.

Let me ask you one simple question. What did Jesus have need to be baptized of?

Did He have to be baptized to wash away "original sin"? Did He have anything to repent of? Did He have to have the "Holy Ghost?"

Show me where it say by baptism you are saved alone?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[HereIStand]

In Mk 16:16 Jesus made both belief and baptism prerequisites to salvation, this implies that one have the capability, use of reason, to believe, which infants do not. One person cannot believe/do obedience for another. One has to be able to believe/have faith before being baptized and both before salvation, this is the order of things in Mk 16:16. For one to be baptized without having faith is not pleasing to God Heb 11:6. Infants cannot come to God with faith nor can they diligently seek Him. So those baptized must have faith or that baptism is not pleasing to God and there will be no salvation without both faith and baptism.

As far as infants being in these households is speculation. Even if there were infants there, they could not be baptized per my above paragraph. Acts 16:32 Paul spoke to "all that were in his house". Can you picture Paul holding and preaching to an infant that is not even capable of understanding a word he is saying, much less not capable of believing?

As far as Psalms 51, David is using figurative poetic, not literal language. THe language allows for him to be speaking about his mother's sin, or that he was born into world of sin. In Psalms 58:3 David says the sinner 'goes astray', which shows that sin is not inherited from Adam, but comes from the individual's on shortcomings. Gen 8:21 man's heart is evil from his youth, not at conception or birth.





After the church began in Acts 2, no one was ever told that 'faith alone' saves, just the opposite is said- James 2:24.



Belief is commanded, should it be 'checked off' like baptism on your list? Both are commanded so both must be obeyed. What's the result to those that disobey the command to believe? Lost. Why would the result be any different for those that disobey the command to be baptized? Both are commanded and cannot be viewed any other way and failure to obey the Lord's command is eternal punishment. Water baptism is the only place where the blood of Christ washes away sin, Rev 1:5. "Faith alone" or a "sinner's prayer" does not access the blood of Christ.

Thank you for the response. First of all, I really couldn’t disagree more with this portion of your post:

As far as Psalms 51, David is using figurative poetic, not literal language. THe language allows for him to be speaking about his mother's sin, or that he was born into world of sin. In Psalms 58:3 David says the sinner 'goes astray', which shows that sin is not inherited from Adam, but comes from the individual's on shortcomings. Gen 8:21 man's heart is evil from his youth, not at conception or birth.

To believe that sin is inherited from Adam (Romans 5) is really foundational to all the rest of theology. In Psalm 51, David is saying that he was born naturally or inherently sinful as a child or wrath (Ephesians 2:3) because of Adam’s sin (Romans 5), not that he was born innocent into a world of sin. Each individual is responsible for his own individual acts of sin. This does not mean that a person is born sinless and is innocent until they commit their first sin in youth.

Perhaps I do not fully understand your beliefs regarding original sin?