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jmacvols

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I disagree. Salvation comes only through grace. Sola Gratia. That grace is given through faith. Sola fide. Those are two very important, and very Biblical concepts.


But there is not one single verse that says one is saved by "grace alone". Does being saved by "grace alone" mean faith is not necessary? Tts 2:11 God's saving grace has appeared to all men, yet all men willnot be saved. God's grace then is conditional upon man's obedience to God. So it takes obedience to receive God's grace in order to be saved.

The bible gives plenty of proof that the Ephesians' faith of Eph 2:8 included water baptism.
 
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jmacvols

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Yes, people who are saved want to make a statement with baptism. It just isn't necessary for salvation. In fact, one is who isn't saved would hardly be baptised.
But the bible does not say that baptism is for making a "statement", Peter said it is for the "remission of sins", Acts 2:38. One cannot be saved without having his sins remitted, and baptism remits sins, so that makes it essential to salvation.
 
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Montanaman

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But the bible does not say that baptism is for making a "statement", Peter said it is for the "remission of sins", Acts 2:38. One cannot be saved without having his sins remitted, and baptism remits sins, so that makes it essential to salvation.

Doesn't get much simpler than that.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Bah, all this talk of initial justification 'by grace through faith' misses the whole point. No one denies this. Not even Catholics or Orthodox (because note I said 'initial' justification- they only deny that grace and faith alone let us continue within the state of justification).

The Scriptures are clear that through faith we are saved, and we have faith by God's grace. If God's grace didn't act on us, then we couldn't have faith, because only God's grace can penetraite the spiritually blinding effects of sin. Even Jacobus Arminius professed this.

The point that Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, and certain Anglicans make is that baptism is a means of grace. Baptism is a means used by God- and in fact that only means attached to an identifiable, visible sign- that graciously imparts the capacity for faith into the receiving individual. It is a work of God performed through a Christian to make more Christians.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized by Christ have put on Christ
1 Peter 3:20b-21a ...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you...
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit; for the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, and all whom the Lord our God calls to himself

No where in the Scriptures will people who claim that baptism is an act of obediance (did Christ come to give us more law?) find any reason to believe it is a command. Christians are commanded to baptize, but to be baptized.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Born Again in Baptism



One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

The Necessity of Baptism



Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.


Hermas


"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).


Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


Tertullian


"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).


Hippolytus


" erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).


Origen


"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).

"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).


Cyril of Jerusalem


"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).


Gregory Nazianz


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).


Pope Siricius


"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).


John Chrysostom


"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).


Ambrose of Milan


"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).


Augustine


"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).

"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).

"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).


Pope Leo I


"And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]" (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).


Fulgentius of Ruspe


"From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004



Above taken from Catholic.com
Emphasis mine and not original.


Thank you.

IMHO, yes - everything we are commanded to do is necessary. God rarely makes suggestions. But not everything is essential for salvation in the sense that without this, we are eternally damned to hell. I believe that we are justified by God's grace through the faith in the atoning work of Christ. I believe such can exist without having been baptized (I've witnessed it hundreds of times).



My $0.01


Pax!


- Josiah
 
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jmacvols

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Bah, all this talk of initial justification 'by grace through faith' misses the whole point. No one denies this. Not even Catholics or Orthodox (because note I said 'initial' justification- they only deny that grace and faith alone let us continue within the state of justification).

The Scriptures are clear that through faith we are saved, and we have faith by God's grace. If God's grace didn't act on us, then we couldn't have faith, because only God's grace can penetraite the spiritually blinding effects of sin. Even Jacobus Arminius professed this.

Tts 2:11 God's saving grace has appeared to all men, do you believe all men will be saved, universal salvation?

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
The point that Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, and certain Anglicans make is that baptism is a means of grace. Baptism is a means used by God- and in fact that only means attached to an identifiable, visible sign- that graciously imparts the capacity for faith into the receiving individual. It is a work of God performed through a Christian to make more Christians.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized by Christ have put on Christ
1 Peter 3:20b-21a ...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you...
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit; for the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, and all whom the Lord our God calls to himself

No where in the Scriptures will people who claim that baptism is an act of obediance (did Christ come to give us more law?) find any reason to believe it is a command. Christians are commanded to baptize, but to be baptized.

In Acts 2:38 Peter said repent and be baptized. "Be baptized" is in the imperative mood (as well as repent). Since this is commanded that makes it necessary to be followed and following a command is an act of obedience. Can one purposely disregard commands and be saved?
 
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HereIStand

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Water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) did not come in effect until Pentecost (Acts 2) so those that lived and died before Pentecost were not required to be water baptized, those that live after Acts 2 are.

I see your point. It's my belief that a Christian should be baptized, either as an infant or adult. And I think it’s fair to argue (based on Acts 2:38) that baptism is more than symbolic. However, I think the only requirement for salvation -- faith in Christ as Savior -- is the same for us as it was for Old Testament saints. If baptism is viewed as an added requirement, this unintentionally seems to make it more of an obligation to fulfill on our part instead of an additional blessing to receive from God.
 
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jmacvols

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I see your point. It's my belief that a Christian should be baptized, either as an infant or adult. And I think it’s fair to argue (based on Acts 2:38) that baptism is more than symbolic.

Water baptism is only for those capable of believing. Infants are innocent and have no sins to remit.


HereIStand said:
However, I think the only requirement for salvation -- faith in Christ as Savior -- is the same for us as it was for Old Testament saints. If baptism is viewed as an added requirement, this unintentionally seems to make it more of an obligation to fulfill on our part instead of an additional blessing to receive from God.

I believe faith is required for salvation also, a faith that includes obedience. I do not believe that "faith alone" is sufficient to save per James 2:24.
Baptism is part of (not an addition to) the requirements to be saved. Baptism is part of salvation as much as belief is, they go hand in hand, Mk 16:16. Do you view having to obey the command to believe as an "obligation" to fulfill?
 
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ParsonJefferson

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So I decide to give my son a car I bought. All he has to do is sign the title. Is the car his because he signed the title, or because I gave it to him? And when does the car become his - when he signed the title, or when I decided to give it to him, or when I told him about it? Is the car his if he refuses to sign the title? And is his signing of the title a "work" or an "acceptance of a gift"?

I have been married for nearly a quarter of a century. When did I become a husband - when I asked my girlfriend to marry me, or when we had our wedding ceremony? Did we walk in to the church married, or walk out of the church married?


So God offers us salvation - having paid the price with the blood of Jesus. He says that all we have to do to receive that salvation is belief, repentance and baptism. Is baptism a "work" or an "acceptance of a gift"? Acts 2:38 CLEARY says that we are to repent and be baptized. Romans 6 CLEARY says that immersion baptism is symbolic of death, burial and resurrection. Of that there is no question.

I'm surprised by several things:
1. Many people who say that baptism is NOT necessary - though Scripture clearly says it is - will say that "the Believers Prayer (or something like it) IS necessary, even though Scripture mentions no such thing.

2. Many people who say that baptism IS necessary, ascribe to a form of baptism (sprinkling of babies) that clearly was NOT part of the New Testament Church.



My rant is over now.
 
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H

hoser

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Correction, only if you interpret it poorly. Most who hold to a literal hermeneutic do not subscribe to the heresy that baptism is required for salvation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.

I can provide dozens of quotes that state that Baptism is necessary. However, you cannot provide ONE that says, "Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone."

Why do you insist on ignoring so much of what is clearly told in scripture?
 
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Peaceful Dove

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Bah, all this talk of initial justification 'by grace through faith' misses the whole point. No one denies this. Not even Catholics or Orthodox (because note I said 'initial' justification- they only deny that grace and faith alone let us continue within the state of justification).

The Scriptures are clear that through faith we are saved, and we have faith by God's grace. If God's grace didn't act on us, then we couldn't have faith, because only God's grace can penetraite the spiritually blinding effects of sin. Even Jacobus Arminius professed this.

The point that Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, and certain Anglicans make is that baptism is a means of grace. Baptism is a means used by God- and in fact that only means attached to an identifiable, visible sign- that graciously imparts the capacity for faith into the receiving individual. It is a work of God performed through a Christian to make more Christians.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized by Christ have put on Christ
1 Peter 3:20b-21a ...in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you...
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit; for the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, and all whom the Lord our God calls to himself

No where in the Scriptures will people who claim that baptism is an act of obediance (did Christ come to give us more law?) find any reason to believe it is a command. Christians are commanded to baptize, but to be baptized.

What a great post.
I do suggest you all really give some study to these Scriptures. They say it all.
 
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sunlover1

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I can provide dozens of quotes that state that Baptism is necessary. However, you cannot provide ONE that says, "Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone."

Why do you insist on ignoring so much of what is clearly told in scripture?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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Stinker

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The baptism in John's name (Mk.1:4) and in Jesus' name (Jn.3:22-23, 4:1) is the same baptism called the Baptism of the Great Commission found in Mt.28:19 . It is the same baptism commanded of the Jews in Acts 2:38 by Peter.

John did baptize in the wilderness and preach the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. (Mk.1:4)

Yes, Jesus, at one time, was water baptizing more people than John the Baptist, via His immediate disciples. (Jn.3:22-23, 4:1)

Now are some people advocating that the people Jesus water baptized during His ministry, had to be re-baptized after His death?

Water baptism, that at first began with John the Baptist until even now, has always been a sign that the person has repented unto eternal life. The only thing that has changed about it has been the authority (in whose name) of it showing whose disciple the baptized person is.
 
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HereIStand

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Water baptism is only for those capable of believing. Infants are innocent and have no sins to remit.

As has been indicated, infants are not innocent but are "brought forth in iniquity" (Psalm 51:5) because of original sin.

I'm sure infant baptism has been debated many times on the forum. I think there are good arguments for or against it. As evidence in favor of it, whole households were baptized in Acts, such as in the case the households of Lydia and the Philippians jailer. In the case of the jailer, I've heard it argued (on another forum) that he was likely a deployed soldier away from his family (so children would not have been in his household, or so it is argued). That still leaves the household of Lydia. In this case, there is no mention of anyone being excluded from the baptism in this household because they were too young to believe. Since this goes unmentioned, I think it's fair to argue that infants or young children could have been baptized with the rest of the household.

I believe faith is required for salvation also, a faith that includes obedience. I do not believe that "faith alone" is sufficient to save per James 2:24.
Baptism is part of (not an addition to) the requirements to be saved. Baptism is part of salvation as much as belief is, they go hand in hand, Mk 16:16. Do you view having to obey the command to believe as an "obligation" to fulfill?

I agree that faith will result in ongoing repentance or obedience, but would argue that this is the result of or the outgrowth of faith taken root in the heart which alone saves.

While I think baptism is commanded, I think that it's better to view it more as a blessing to be received in addition to faith and less as something we do in obedience. Viewing it more as something we do in obedience seems to unintentionally contribute to the idea that we are checking off a check box on a list.

To believe in Christ is a command. At the same time, I think it's something we can not help but do out of conviction of our sin and knowledge of the truth of Christ's Death and Resurrection. At the same time, even faith to believe is a gift.
 
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spiritwarrior37

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But the bible does not say that baptism is for making a "statement", Peter said it is for the "remission of sins", Acts 2:38. One cannot be saved without having his sins remitted, and baptism remits sins, so that makes it essential to salvation.

See thread #8.
 
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