Baptizm

[StatePSO]

Is water baptizm necessary for salvation?

 

[tapero]

No, but you will find those that say yes. No it isn't required for salvation. Faith in Christ and that He was resurrected is needed to be believed for salvation. We get baptised because we are told to. To show our fellowship with the Lord. To make a public statement.

Welcome to the forums by the way!

Tapero

 

[DeaconDean]

No, but you will find those that say yes. No it isn't required for salvation. Faith in Christ and that He was resurrected is needed to be believed for salvation. We get baptised because we are told to. To show our fellowship with the Lord. To make a public statement.

Welcome to the forums by the way!

Tapero

What she said! God Bless ya Sis.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[StatePSO]

Born Again in Baptism



One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

The Necessity of Baptism



Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.


Hermas


"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).


Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).


Tertullian


"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).


Hippolytus


" erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).


Origen


"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).

"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).


Cyril of Jerusalem


"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).


Gregory Nazianz


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).


Pope Siricius


"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).


John Chrysostom


"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).


Ambrose of Milan


"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).


Augustine


"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).

"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).

"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).


Pope Leo I


"And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]" (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).


Fulgentius of Ruspe


"From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004​

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


Above taken from Catholic.com​

 

[DeaconDean]

Born Again in Baptism



One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

One reason to reject this is because of what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman:

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." -Jn 4:10-14

Jesus is the living water, whosoever is not born of His living water may well be what is talked about in Jn. 3:5

And to further this:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:" -Jn. 16:8

This verse tells us that the Holy Spirit is already working within the sinner to bring them to grace, so how is it:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

How is it that one must be baptized to receive the Holy Spirit when it is already working from within before repentance?

And you have an incorrect reading of Romans 6:4:

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." -Romans 6:4-6

It is His death that we are baptized into and raised up, coming up out of the water, so that we walk in newness of life. As Christ died on the cross, so we go under the water to show we died with Him. And as Christ came up out of the water, so our emergence up from the water shows that Christ arose from the dead, we arise with Him, into a new life wherewith we are no longer servants of sin. It is our symbolic act that we do to proclaim our faith in the ressurected Savior. And no where in the scriptures is there the proclimation that baptism saves. In fact the scriptures say:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" -Eph. 2:8

And what did Jesus need to be baptized for? Did He have any sin He needed to be washed of? No, He set the example for us to follow. Because He did, we should.

But, why are we agruing this here? Is there not a forum for this already?

I'm sorry, but personally, I hold to my Baptist views of Baptism. If you would like, visit Sacrament/Ordinance Theology. I'm sure there are those in there that would like to debate this. Anyhow...

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Optimax]

Rom 6: 3 speaks of being baptized. Baptism means immersion. When one baptizes is baprized one is immeresed in water.

However this verse speaks of baptized into Jesus Christ. When one is baptized into Jesus Christ on is immersed into him and we are then members of the Body of Christ. This is done by the Holy Spirit when one is born again. Rom. 10:9-10 tells us how to be born again.

Rom 6:3 and explained in verse 4 and 5, then says that
we are baptized into his death, therefore we are buried with him by baptism unto death.

This baptism is an immersion into water a symbol that we are buried with him. When we come back up out or the water a symbol of being resurrected to a newness of life.

Ro 6:3-5
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
KJV

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Is water baptizm necessary for salvation?

As long as I can remember, I have never thought about the necessity of baptism for salvation. I was always taught and had believed that baptism was basically a public display for what had already taken place on the inside. That being acceptance of Christ as Lord and Saviour in our hearts.
It was then that I ran across something that made me question this belief. So I embarked on a study to find the truth in the scriptures. I hope this study will in fact be useful to myself as well as others.
When we examine all of the claims that are made concerning baptism, how can we determine which one is true. When attempting to determine a position on any subject, we must search for the position that allows us to consistently use all of god’s word, rather than just parts of it. If we are to properly understand baptism, we must examine all of the verses in the Bible that state the purpose of baptism and let the Bible be the final authority.
Although the Baptists and many others teach that a person is baptized after they become a Christian, others believe the Bible teaches baptism is required in order to be born again. How can we know which view of baptism is right?
When Jesus said, “ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” ( Mark 16:16), what did He mean? Did He actually mean we must believe and be baptized to be saved? Many would have you believe this to be true. The word believeth is the Greek is pisteusas (from pisteuo), an aorist participle referring to one who has believed at some time in the past. Also baptistheis, translated “ is baptized,” is an aorist participle but in the passive voice. This form refers to an act of outward obedience, in this case, baptism. Therefore, the correct translation here should be stated, “ He who believed and was baptized shall be saved.” however, the Lord adds, “ but he who believeth not shall be damned.” It should be noted that this negative statement does not include a reference to baptism, making it clear that what saves a person is living faith in Jesus Christ. This is also made clear in Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace are ye saved through faith.” The word saved is translated from the Greek word sesosmenoi, which is a perfect passive participle. It means that this salvation took place at some point in the past and is continuing in the present, being accomplished by Jesus Christ himself. If baptism were necessary for salvation, Ephesians 2:8 and many other verses should have been translated “ ye are saved through faith and baptism.” Baptism is a distant act of obedience apart from salvation. This is clarified by the order in which the words believe and baptize occur in the text.
Some would use Matt. 28:19 to prove baptism is necessary for salvation. “ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” The main thing to note here is that the word teach precedes the mentioning of baptism. Clearly this shows that one is already saved and is being taught the word of God before they are baptized.

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Is water baptizm necessary for salvation?

Acts 2:38 is also another verse used to try and prove baptism is a part of salvation. “ Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The main verb in this verse is mentanoesate, meaning repent. This refers to that initial repentance of a sinner unto salvation. The verb translated be baptized is in the indirect passive imperative of baptizo which means that it does not have the same force as the direct command of repent. The preposition for in the phrase “ for the remission of sins,” in the Greek is eis, unto. Literally it means “ for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins. This same preposition is used in 1 Corinthians10:2 in the phrase “ and were baptized unto (eis) Moses. These people were identifying themselves with the work and ministry of Moses. Repentance is something that concerns an individual and God, while baptism is intended to be a testimony to other people. That is why baptistheto, “ to be baptized” is in the passive voice indicating that one does not baptize himself, but he is baptized by another usually in the presence of others.
Acts 22:16 “ And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Some believe that this verse teaches baptismal regeneration, that baptism is required for salvation. Several factors must be considered. 1) The historical narrative of Paul’s conversion in chapter 9 shows that he was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit before his baptism. 2) The same is true of Cornelius’s conversion in chapter 10. He was clearly saved and baptized with the Spirit before he was baptized in water (10:47). 3) More importantly one must listen to Paul’s teaching on this subject. Regeneration, not water baptism, washes away our sins (Titus 3:5).
There are many other verses that could be included in this study. But these were the ones most often used to try and say that baptism is required for salvation. I believe I have given sufficient evidence that this is not the case. Consider the following. Romans 10:9 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” And also 1 Thess.4:14 “ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.”
Now along with the previous statements I will close with this. The apostolic precedent on the day of Pentecost furnishes a beautiful model of correct procedure for the Christian Church in perpetuity: first there was the declaration of Gods word by a man of God; second, the Holy Spirit convinced many of the hearers of their sin; third, in true repentance they turned away from their sin; fourth, they accepted the Christ who is offered as Saviour in the Gospel; and finally, baptism was administered to those who turned to Jesus and they were inducted into the membership of the church.
So therefore, it is my belief that the following are the steps for salvation. 1) The hearing of the word of God preached by a man of God. “ Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by he word of God.” We must first hear the message of salvation preached. 2) After we have heard the word of God, the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts of our sins. 3) we then repent of our sin. notice I said sin, not sins. The sin we are repenting of is the sin of not knowing Jesus Christ as our Saviour. 4) The acceptance of Jesus as Saviour and Lord of our lives. It is at this point that we let Jesus into our heart to guide us in all that we do. 5) Here is the part I have leading up to all along. After you hear the word of God, and your heart has been convicted of sin, and you repent and accept Jesus as your Saviour, it is then that we are baptized. At this time you are baptized, not for salvation, but we are baptized into the church. By church I don’t mean the building you go to, or whatever denomination you belong to. Baptism into the church here is the one true church, the Church of Christ. It is at this time we are baptized into the body of believer’s, of which Christ is the head.

IMHO this proves Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

 

[BereanTodd]

Simply, no. Baptism is important and a saved person should absolutely be baptised. But it is not required for salvation.

 

[hoser]

Is water baptizm necessary for salvation?

If you go by scripture the answer is yes. John 3:3-5, John 1:32, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5, Acts 9:18, 1 Cor. 6:11, etc.

 

[icedtea]

What of Romans 10:9?
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[leothelioness]

If you go by scripture the answer is yes.

Only if you interpret it literally.

 

[BereanTodd]

Only if you interpret it literally.

Correction, only if you interpret it poorly. Most who hold to a literal hermeneutic do not subscribe to the heresy that baptism is required for salvation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.

 

[jmacvols]

What of Romans 10:9?
That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is only one verse. There are many, many verses that deal with salvation and the sum of them have to be taken into consideration.

"How precious are Thy thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them" Psa 139:17.

 

[jmacvols]

Correction, only if you interpret it poorly. Most who hold to a literal hermeneutic do not subscribe to the heresy that baptism is required for salvation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.

But there is no verse that says salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. This is actually a contradictory statement. "Alone" is an exclusionary word. If salvation is by 'grace alone' then this would exclude everything else, including grace, from salvation. If salvation were by 'faith alone' then that would exclude grace. It takes both grace and faith to be saved, never either one alone.

 

[HereIStand]

Based on the examples of the Old Testament saints and the thief on the Cross, I would say that a person can be saved without Baptism. At the same time, I would say that Baptism effects forgiveness of sins and imparts the gift of the Holy Spirit to a fuller extent or in addition to pre-existing faith that God has already granted in the heart as a gift. However, I don't think this is something that can be nailed down perfectly from Scripture.

 

[sunlover1]

Based on the examples of the Old Testament saints and the thief on the Cross, I would say that a person can be saved without Baptism. At the same time, I would say that Baptism effects forgiveness of sins and imparts the gift of the Holy Spirit to a fuller extent or in addition to pre-existing faith that God has already granted in the heart as a gift. However, I don't think this is something that can be nailed down perfectly from Scripture.

Here he talks of two baptisms, John's being a baptism of repentance. And these guys hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit!:

Acts 19:2-6
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[BereanTodd]

But there is no verse that says salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. This is actually a contradictory statement. "Alone" is an exclusionary word. If salvation is by 'grace alone' then this would exclude everything else, including grace, from salvation. If salvation were by 'faith alone' then that would exclude grace. It takes both grace and faith to be saved, never either one alone.

I disagree. Salvation comes only through grace. Sola Gratia. That grace is given through faith. Sola fide. Those are two very important, and very Biblical concepts.

 

[HereIStand]

Here he talks of two baptisms, John's being a baptism of repentance. And these guys hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit!:

Acts 19:2-6
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This is a good point. Perhaps, based on the verse '...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.' (I Corinthians 12:3), the believers Paul spoke with who had not heard of the Holy Spirit still had the Holy Spirit to the extent that the Holy Spirit enabled them to say "Jesus is Lord" and trust in Christ in faith, but in receiving Baptism, they received the Holy Spirit to a fuller extent. What do you think?

 

[jmacvols]

Based on the examples of the Old Testament saints and the thief on the Cross, I would say that a person can be saved without Baptism. At the same time, I would say that Baptism effects forgiveness of sins and imparts the gift of the Holy Spirit to a fuller extent or in addition to pre-existing faith that God has already granted in the heart as a gift. However, I don't think this is something that can be nailed down perfectly from Scripture.

Water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) did not come in effect until Pentecost (Acts 2) so those that lived and died before Pentecost were not required to be water baptized, those that live after Acts 2 are.