Baptists getting on my nerves

[Gerry]

Yesterday at 11:25 PM paulewog said this in Post #33

I hope you were kidding, Gerry. We should want to hear the Word of God... not just what we want to hear. I don't always want to hear what I hear... I don't like being convicted exaaactly But it is what I SHOULD hear. That's important.

Hehe, my church is a indendent-Bible-pre-milennial-dispensationalist-nasIsTheBestTranslation-fundamental-expositoy-preaching church

Did I mention, right-wing-wacko

I hope YOU were kidding by asking? Do you read my posts?
BTW, have you prayed for me lately? Next time you go to your Church please present my name for prayer, that God would strengthen me and give me wisdom in my service to Him! Your kind of Church would surely be glad to honor that prayer request! Thanks!

 

[paulewog]

Well I was pretty sure you were kidding, but not entirely sure. Sometimes it's hard to tell on a message board

 

[Chrissy]

The shortness of time or fear of "Hell" is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend. This should not be the great motive with us; for it savors of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear? I ought not to be so. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy,and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life.

What does the Bible say brings us to repent? is it fear?

Rom:2:4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

What makes us love God, is it fear?

1Jn:4:19: We love him, because he first loved us.

It is beholding the love of Christ on the cross and God's love for us that will draw people to God:

Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. The devils and Satan do not "believe" out of love, but out of fear.

God wants us to love Him and He wants us to serve Him out of that motivation of love. That way we delight to do His will. If we serve out of fear, then we continually need to hear that same "hellfire and damnation" message over and over again because it doesnt last.

I believe the problem with the Baptist Churches or any other church who uses fear as a motivation for giving up the world ... isnt that they preach the same message over and over again... the real problem is that "motivation of fear" message itself.

Isnt the love of Jesus attractive enough?

The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton.

Some are not moved by any deep sense of the love of Christ, but they seek to perform the duties of the Christian life as that which God requires of them in order to gain heaven or to shun Hell. Such a religion is worth nothing. When Christ dwells in the heart, the soul will be so filled with His love, and in the joy of this relationship with Him, self will be forgotten. Love to Christ will be the spring of action. Those who feel the love of God, do not ask how little may be given to meet the requirements of God; they do not ask for the lowest standard, but they seek to serve Him and to do His will out of the motivation of love. A profession of Christ without this deep love is mere talk, dry formality, and heavy drudgery. It produces a Pharisee-like Religion.


But what do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love.

God does not require us to give up anything that it is for our best interest to keep. In all that He does, He has the well-being of His children in view. All who have not chosen Christ need to realize that He has something vastly better to offer them than they are seeking for themselves. Man is doing the greatest injury and injustice to his own soul when he thinks and acts contrary to the will of God. No real joy can be found in the path forbidden by Him who knows what is best and who plans for the good of His creatures. The path of transgression is the path of misery and destruction.

These things are what need to be the main topics of the Christian's message for evangelization....  and people need to hear them.. but the fear and hellfire and damnation many times only cause a hatred for God and a turning away from Him.


 

Chrissy

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 04:29 PM Chrissy said this in Post #43
.

God does not require us to give up anything that it is for our best interest to keep. In all that He does, He has the well-being of His children in view. All who have not chosen Christ need to realize that He has something vastly better to offer them than they are seeking for themselves. Man is doing the greatest injury and injustice to his own soul when he thinks and acts contrary to the will of God. No real joy can be found in the path forbidden by Him who knows what is best and who plans for the good of His creatures. The path of transgression is the path of misery and destruction.

These things are what need to be the main topics of the Christian's message for evangelization.... not fear and hellfire and damnation.


 

Chrissy

So Chrissy why should some one be saved?

 

[Gerry]

Today at 03:11 PM paulewog said this in Post #42

Well I was pretty sure you were kidding, but not entirely sure. Sometimes it's hard to tell on a message board

I see! Well, it is OK that you don't read my posts. After all you are busy enough, and actually my posts would mean little to you. But what about the prayer request? You did not mention that, and I am very serious!

 

[Chrissy]

Hi rnmomof7, 

 

I dont know exactly what you mean by asking why should someone be saved. But let me appeal to your "mom of 7" side...

 

Try to imagine if you had children and all you ever did is threaten them into submission to your will. Think about how that would make them regard you.

 

Then think of the people of Iraq. Those people were under a Dictatorship. They did what they were told out of fear.   Just as soon as they believed Saddam Hussein was gone, they began shouting for joy      .. they began trying to pull his staute down, stomping upon it, hitting it with their shoes. They actually grew to hate who they served, why? because they were made to serve him out of fear and not out of a willing love. And I believe that this is what the constant message of hellfire and damnation really does to people. Thats why they have to threaten people over and over with that... because it really doesnt effect any lasting change in the heart... just like if we were to constantly threaten to punish our kids if they didnt obey us.

 

I think that is the way that Satan wants us to preach our message, so that people will hate God instead of love Him...   and that it isn't God's way of doing things at all. Once in a while I think people need to hear that message... just as once in a while our children need to hear about the consequences of their disobedience but it doesnt need to be the main thrust of our message at all, and in fact will have a negative effect if it is.

  
Besides all that, think about the Roman Catholic practice of Indulgences and Purgatory. People were taught that they could pay to get their loved ones out of Hell. Oh boy, what an incentive for giving tithes and offerings!     The "hellfire" message was used as a lever... and in a really bad way. 
   


Chrissy

 

[paulewog]

Mr. Gerry, I read your post From what I know about your beliefs, I was pretty much sure that you were joking, but I wanted to make sure anyways, and it brought up a good point, too.

I will pray for you But not knowing you personally, I don't think asking for prayer in my church would work so well.

Back to the "hellfire and dalmations," as my pastor accidentally said once The message itself is good to preach - but that's not the end of the message. The other part is how much God loves us and how He provided a way out of it.

You don't just stop after telling everyone that they are on the road to hell...

That's like ending on a diminished chord in music.

 

[Gerry]

Today at 04:27 PM paulewog said this in Post #47

Mr. Gerry, I read your post From what I know about your beliefs, I was pretty much sure that you were joking, but I wanted to make sure anyways, and it brought up a good point, too.

I will pray for you But not knowing you personally, I don't think asking for prayer in my church would work so well.

Back to the "hellfire and dalmations," as my pastor accidentally said once The message itself is good to preach - but that's not the end of the message. The other part is how much God loves us and how He provided a way out of it.

You don't just stop after telling everyone that they are on the road to hell...

That's like ending on a diminished chord in music.

There was an "S" on the end of the word post! I was not referring to a single post I made. By reading some of the others you might get a better understanding of who and what I am.

I am glad your pastor has pointed out that there are TWO parts to the message. The part erroneously preached as the complete message is the part that "God loves you"! The part that there is a consequence for rejecting the salvation message is all too often left off, explained away, and sometimes dismissed as fiction.

I will withdraw my request for prayer at your Church. And you are right. If you cannot go to your Church and state that you know me to be a brother, it would be wrong for you to present the request I made to you. The only request you could justly present would be one pertaining to salvation. That is one I will not waste time presenting as I am already sure of my standing with God.

I appreciate your answer about the prayer more than I can express. It does reveal to me the reason for the actions of some others regarding their stance on some basic Christian principles I have addressed in other posts.

 

[paulewog]

Hm. I didn't notice the S I tend to skim a bit. I read too fast and am used to fiction.

Hehe, as I said, I rather think you have conservative Christian beliefs, so I would have been utterly shocked if you weren't being sarcastic

Well, I'm glad you appreciated my reply. I'm not sure how that helped clear something else up but I'm glad nonetheless, hehe

Actually, my pastor never pointed that out... not that I remember anyways. But yes, many people tend to blow one aspct of God out of proportion - God IS love, God IS mercy, God IS grace...

God is ALSO just, holy, and the big no-no in some places: wrathful

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:11 PM Chrissy said this in Post #46

Hi rnmomof7, 

 

I dont know exactly what you mean by asking why should someone be saved. But let me appeal to your "mom of 7" side...

 

Try to imagine if you had children and all you ever did is threaten them into submission to your will. Think about how that would make them regard you.

 

Then think of the people of Iraq. Those people were under a Dictatorship. They did what they were told out of fear.   Just as soon as they believed Saddam Hussein was gone, they began shouting for joy      .. they began trying to pull his staute down, stomping upon it, hitting it with their shoes. They actually grew to hate who they served, why? because they were made to serve him out of fear and not out of a willing love. And I believe that this is what the constant message of hellfire and damnation really does to people. Thats why they have to threaten people over and over with that... because it really doesnt effect any lasting change in the heart... just like if we were to constantly threaten to punish our kids if they didnt obey us.

 

I think that is the way that Satan wants us to preach our message, so that people will hate God instead of love Him...   and that it isn't God's way of doing things at all. Once in a while I think people need to hear that message... just as once in a while our children need to hear about the consequences of their disobedience but it doesnt need to be the main thrust of our message at all, and in fact will have a negative effect if it is.

  
Besides all that, think about the Roman Catholic practice of Indulgences and Purgatory. People were taught that they could pay to get their loved ones out of Hell. Oh boy, what an incentive for giving tithes and offerings!     The "hellfire" message was used as a lever... and in a really bad way. 
   


Chrissy

Chrissy Here is what I am asking you..Why do you evangelize people..when they ask you why they should come to Christ what do you tell them? What is the benefit to being saved?

What is the message of the Bible? What was the purpose of Christ?

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:54 PM paulewog said this in Post #49


Actually, my pastor never pointed that out... not that I remember anyways. But yes, many people tend to blow one aspct of God out of proportion - God IS love,

Paul we only know that because of the fact that

God IS mercy, God IS grace...

God is ALSO just, holy, and the big no-no in some places: wrathful

 

[TWells]

17th April 2003 at 09:29 PM Chrissy said this in Post #43

The shortness of time or fear of "Hell" is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend. This should not be the great motive with us; for it savors of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear? I ought not to be so. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy,and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life.

What makes us love God, is it fear?

1Jn:4:19: We love him, because he first loved us.

It is beholding the love of Christ on the cross and God's love for us that will draw people to God:

Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. The devils and Satan do not "believe" out of love, but out of fear.

God wants us to love Him and He wants us to serve Him out of that motivation of love. That way we delight to do His will. If we serve out of fear, then we continually need to hear that same "hellfire and damnation" message over and over again because it doesnt last.

I believe the problem with the Baptist Churches or any other church who uses fear as a motivation for giving up the world ... isnt that they preach the same message over and over again... the real problem is that "motivation of fear" message itself.

Isnt the love of Jesus attractive enough?

The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton.

Some are not moved by any deep sense of the love of Christ, but they seek to perform the duties of the Christian life as that which God requires of them in order to gain heaven or to shun Hell. Such a religion is worth nothing. When Christ dwells in the heart, the soul will be so filled with His love, and in the joy of this relationship with Him, self will be forgotten. Love to Christ will be the spring of action. Those who feel the love of God, do not ask how little may be given to meet the requirements of God; they do not ask for the lowest standard, but they seek to serve Him and to do His will out of the motivation of love. A profession of Christ without this deep love is mere talk, dry formality, and heavy drudgery. It produces a Pharisee-like Religion.


But what do we give up, when we give all? A sin-polluted heart, for Jesus to purify, to cleanse by His own blood, and to save by His matchless love.

God does not require us to give up anything that it is for our best interest to keep. In all that He does, He has the well-being of His children in view. All who have not chosen Christ need to realize that He has something vastly better to offer them than they are seeking for themselves. Man is doing the greatest injury and injustice to his own soul when he thinks and acts contrary to the will of God. No real joy can be found in the path forbidden by Him who knows what is best and who plans for the good of His creatures. The path of transgression is the path of misery and destruction.

These things are what need to be the main topics of the Christian's message for evangelization....  and people need to hear them.. but the fear and hellfire and damnation many times only cause a hatred for God and a turning away from Him. 

Chrissy

Very well said...

Not that people shouldnt know the consequences of their actions but fear shouldnt be what we remember most when we look back on the day we turned to Christ.

 

[rnmomof7]

17th April 2003 at 04:29 PM Chrissy said this in Post #43

The shortness of time or fear of "Hell" is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend. This should not be the great motive with us; for it savors of selfishness. Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear? I ought not to be so. Jesus is attractive. He is full of love, mercy,and compassion. He proposes to be our friend, to walk with us through all the rough pathways of life.

If that is the wrong way to evangelize how is it that Christ taught more about h*ll than heaven? The bible talks about the wages of sin..You say that Jesus is full of "mercy" ..Mercy from what? What does God's love and grace and mercy keep us from?

What does the Bible say brings us to repent? is it fear?

Rom:2:4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

What makes us love God, is it fear?

He draws us with his grace and mercy. But mercy only has meaning if we understand what the mercy is for ..

We love Him because he loved us first!
When we see the enormity of our sin we love and praise Him for his everloving kindness to us ,to save us from that which we deserve.

Only when we understand how he has saved us from our just punishment do we have a proper understanding of His love.

It is beholding the love of Christ on the cross and God's love for us that will draw people to God:

Chrissy if there is no fear of hell and the just punishment how can we appreciate the cross and what He did for us?

God wants us to love Him and He wants us to serve Him out of that motivation of love. That way we delight to do His will. If we serve out of fear, then we continually need to hear that same "hellfire and damnation" message over and over again because it doesnt last.

Do you have a scripture that says God does not want us to fear Him?

We need to be reminded that Jesus was a propitiation for our sins Chrissy..We need to remember what He died for and what he saved us from..

Chrissy I asked earlier..iwhy do you tell people they need Christ? (just curious)

These things are what need to be the main topics of the Christian's message for evangelization....  and people need to hear them.. but the fear and hellfire and damnation many times only cause a hatred for God and a turning away from Him.

Did you know that the Jonathan Edwards sermon "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" started the great awakeing?

Jesus warned of h*lls fire...

Is there no room to preach God's holiness or justice any more?

 

[Blackhawk]

Great post rnmomof7,

Here is one instae when Christ spoke about hell. To the ones who think it is wrong to emphasize hell was Christ wrong below? He is clearly using hell and the fear of hell as a means to get his listeners to help others.

Matt 25:31-46
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink?
38 "And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 "When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "The King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them} you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(NAU)

I do agree that one should not just use hellfire and brinstone sermons. And I do agree that they should not always be used because of the situation. However the hell fire and brimstone message is not a completely improper way to evagelize. Sometimes I think it is what the world needs although it is not what they want. Paul did not give the Corinthians the typical rhetoric that would of been more pleasing to the people of Corinth but would of enforced their view of self relliance and self boasting.

1 Cor 2:1-5
1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
(NIV)

 

[rnmomof7]

opps accidential post

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 11:01 AM Blackhawk said this in Post #54


I do agree that one should not just use hellfire and brinstone sermons. And I do agree that they should not always be used because of the situation. However the hell fire and brimstone message is not a completely improper way to evagelize. Sometimes I think it is what the world needs although it is not what they want. Paul did not give the Corinthians the typical rhetoric that would of been more pleasing to the people of Corinth but would of enforced their view of self relliance and self boasting.

1 Cor 2:1-5
1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.
2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling.
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
(NIV)

We really do agree.
The church was never intended as the PLACE of evangelization..If you read all through the NT you see that the gospel was preached ,men converted and THEN they were brought to the church.
It is a fairly new thing for Pastors to woo the UNSAVED into the church to evangelize them .

The church is for the equipping of the saints..and as such should serve meat to the saved. However I do think it is wise to preach on occassion the debth of the mercy of God and how He sees sinful man.

It reminds us of our condition before His grace.

I once heard a sermon where the preacher said unless a man sees himself as God sees him , he will never appreciate Gods mercy. I agree with that.

My interest in this thread has been the new gospel that seems prevelant today. It is not salvation based , but feelings based..God wants you to feel good and like yourself and be healthy wealthy and wise..all your problems will be solved if you come to the cross..

Bad theology builds bad churchs filled with selfish unsaved people that go through the motions IMHO..

 

[WayneH]

Amen rnmomof7........

couldn't have said it any better - I'm not only happy to be in the Baptist church I attend I also feel blessed and led by God to be there.... The buggest blessing happpens to be our Pastor - He would NEVER Preach a sermon about feeling good - and all the things that tickle mans ears...

He preaches the inerrant word Of GOD.... He teaches like He reads it.. and He isn't ashamed to tell it like it is... you hit it ion the nail - too many churches giving into the SECULAR thinking... don't upset your confregation by telling them about hell - they may leave... he preaches directly from the Bible - giving meat to the fellowship as well as tieing a message into salvation..

thanks for your posts - I enjoyed reading them....

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 11:38 AM WayneH said this in Post #57

Amen rnmomof7........

couldn't have said it any better - I'm not only happy to be in the Baptist church I attend I also feel blessed and led by God to be there.... The buggest blessing happpens to be our Pastor - He would NEVER Preach a sermon about feeling good - and all the things that tickle mans ears...

He preaches the inerrant word Of GOD.... He teaches like He reads it.. and He isn't ashamed to tell it like it is... you hit it ion the nail - too many churches giving into the SECULAR thinking... don't upset your confregation by telling them about hell - they may leave... he preaches directly from the Bible - giving meat to the fellowship as well as tieing a message into salvation..

thanks for your posts - I enjoyed reading them....

Thank you for your kindness. I recently had to leave a start up Baptist fellowship with the finest preaching I have ever heard ,to go to a church nearer to my home . It is a fine church with wonderful people ...BUT not a Sunday goes by I do not miss the sermons that filled this "old christians" bible with marginal notes.

 

[LastMaxim]

Today at 12:20 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #56



We really do agree.
The church was never intended as the PLACE of evangelization..If you read all through the NT you see that the gospel was preached ,men converted and THEN they were brought to the church.
It is a fairly new thing for Pastors to woo the UNSAVED into the church to evangelize them .

The church is for the equipping of the saints..and as such should serve meat to the saved. However I do think it is wise to preach on occassion the debth of the mercy of God and how He sees sinful man.

It reminds us of our condition before His grace.

I once heard a sermon where the preacher said unless a man sees himself as God sees him , he will never appreciate Gods mercy. I agree with that.

My interest in this thread has been the new gospel that seems prevelant today. It is not salvation based , but feelings based..God wants you to feel good and like yourself and be healthy wealthy and wise..all your problems will be solved if you come to the cross..

Bad theology builds bad churchs filled with selfish unsaved people that go through the motions IMHO..

...yup, well said...the church I attend seems so strange to most of the other churches around...no 15 minute 'feel good' sermon here...just meat and bones Gospel...we're there for upwards of 3 hours, or so, each Sunday, the first hour consisting of praise and prayer only. The minister is young, but inspired by the Word, and refuses to teach anything but what is written in God's Word (rare thing, that...) When we sit down, we enter into a real time of study. The church has it's basis in 'Ephesians 4', and so we work hard to equip our members for service. We're quite content to allow God to 'shake-up' our lives to what ever extent He deems necessary to ensure we can cast off anything that is not of Him, and therefore be effective in our walk with Him...some aren't ready for this, but we're there when they are...

 

[MikeMcK]

What is it about the baptist church that they insist on telling everyone to "turn or burn" every single Sunday?

Please don't say "the baptist church" as though we're all one big monolithic entity.

There are dozens and dozens of baptist denominations and very few of them are like the others.

Any of you baptists care to defend your faith?

I don't know that I need to.