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Baptists and Original Sin

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SumTinWong

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Crazy Liz said:
Uncle Bud, it's time to stop reading your NIV for a while. Promise yourself that the next 10 times you read Romans or Galatians, you will read it in any version other than the NIV or NLT. Find a version that consistently translates the Greek word sarx as "flesh," and not as "sinful nature."
I do not generally read the NIV or the NLT, I read the NAB, NASB, or the ESV, but thank you for the advice and I will keep it in mind if I ever do.

What you believe would not be considered unorthodox, but it is a particular view, based on a particular understanding of what Paul means by the word "flesh" - one that is not unanimously held by all Christians.
In case you are wondering these are my beliefs:
I do not believe that we carry the stain of original sin (as prescribed by Augustine via Tertullian).

I do believe we do carry a "sin nature", or tendancies to sin if you will, through that nature that is handed down as you say through our ancestors as a result of Adams sin. We are prone to sin, because of our weak state.

I do not believe that we are pre-judged guilty of Adams sin from birth (or that we inherited that guilt).

I do believe that Adam alone committed the "original sin" so he alone is guilty for his own sin, that it is not our heads, no matter what Augustine or Tertullian has to say on the subject.

I also believe, the consequences of that first sin (sickness, pain, death) and most especially the all powerful propensity to sin, is inherited by all of Adams descendants which includes you and me.

This is my belief on the subject.

I think you will find that it is quite Orthodox albeit Eastern in flavor, not Western.

I do not wish to discuss these beliefs, nor am I saying that this belief is held by Baptists other than myself. I am just giving those who want to know what this baptist believes, based on what he has learned so far.

Thank you for your time :)
 
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ZiSunka

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I do not believe that we carry the stain of original sin (as prescribed by Augustine via Tertullian).

I do believe we do carry a "sin nature", or tendancies to sin if you will, through that nature that is handed down as you say through our ancestors as a result of Adams sin. We are prone to sin, because of our weak state.

I do not believe that we are pre-judged guilty of Adams sin from birth (or that we inherited that guilt).

I do believe that Adam alone committed the "original sin" so he alone is guilty for his own sin, that it is not our heads, no matter what Augustine or Tertullian has to say on the subject.

I also believe, the consequences of that first sin (sickness, pain, death) and most especially the all powerful propensity to sin, is inherited by all of Adams descendants which includes you and me.

These are exactly my beliefs, too, so if you are somehow off kilter, I guess I am, too, and so are all of the people I study the Bible with, including the Bible college I went to for a while.

I guess I thought this was the baptist/anabaptist position on the concept of original sin, so many churches teach it this way!
 
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Crazy Liz

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Uncle Bud said:
I do not generally read the NIV or the NLT, I read the NAB, NASB, or the ESV, but thank you for the advice and I will keep it in mind if I ever do.


In case you are wondering these are my beliefs:
I do not believe that we carry the stain of original sin (as prescribed by Augustine via Tertullian).

I thought Tertullian preceded Augustine by a couple hundred years. No?

Your conclusion, though, is quite compatible with both Eastern Orthodoxy and the Anabaptists. :D

I do believe we do carry a "sin nature", or tendancies to sin if you will, through that nature that is handed down as you say through our ancestors as a result of Adams sin. We are prone to sin, because of our weak state.

"Deprived," not "depraved?" I agree, but the phrase "sin nature" is usually associated with depravity, which is why I usually avoid the phrase. I was not really trying to argue with you, just clarify. :thumbsup: You may find people misunderstand you when you use that phrase, or, OTOH, you may use it in an intentionally vague way so as to avoid controversy. ;)
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, All

From the LBC:

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )


2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 ) 5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

Waldensian Confessions of Faith, 1120

1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the apostles' creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.

2. We believe that there is one God - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. (Here follows the title of each, exactly conformable to our received canon, but which it is deemed, on that account, quite unnecessary to particularize.)

4. The books above-mentioned teach us: That there is one GOD, almighty, unbounded in wisdom, and infinite in goodness, and who, in His goodness, has made all things. For He created Adam after His own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the Devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.

5. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who received the law, to the end that, knowing their sin by the law, and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplish the law by Himself.

6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born - a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display His grace and mercy towards us.

7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness - our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for their justification.




Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Gwenyfur

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Crazy Liz said:
I don't know. Answer me this. Does "all" include the newborn baby who takes only one breath and then dies?
Doesn't that touch on the age of accountability?
Crazy Liz said:
Surely it is the human experience that all people, by the time they reach the ability to understand these words of Paul's, are also conscious of having fallen short personally, in some way, at some time.

Is is necessary for us to determine the exact moment of each individual's personal Fall, as precisely as Genesis describes the moment Adam ate the forbidden fruit? Or can we just say that, at some point between taking our first breath and becoming conscious of good and evil, we sin. Our consciousness of good and evil comes (whenever and however it does come), in every case, along with the sense that we ourselves have already fallen short of perfection.

1Cor 15:21-22 "For since by man came death (sin), by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

I take this as meaning that sin entered through Adam's flesh, by that we all inherited the sentence of death from him. It's through Jesus, and His sacrifice of flesh and blood, that we inherit life when we call on His name for forgiveness, salvation and grace.
 
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SumTinWong

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Crazy Liz said:
I thought Tertullian preceded Augustine by a couple hundred years. No?
Yeah, I believe that Augustine got most of his mterial and ideas on the guilt of original sin from Tertullian.

Your conclusion, though, is quite compatible with both Eastern Orthodoxy and the Anabaptists. :D
I know isn't that something! Perhaps I am a closet Anabaptist ;)

"Deprived," not "depraved?" I agree, but the phrase "sin nature" is usually associated with depravity, which is why I usually avoid the phrase.
I see what you are saying. It is how I best understand it, that is why I use it :)

I was not really trying to argue with you, just clarify. :thumbsup: You may find people misunderstand you when you use that phrase, or, OTOH, you may use it in an intentionally vague way so as to avoid controversy.
No worries here, I appreciate your help, and taking the time to make sure I am orthodox in belief. It takes a friend to do that. :)
 
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SumTinWong

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lambslove said:
These are exactly my beliefs, too, so if you are somehow off kilter, I guess I am, too, and so are all of the people I study the Bible with, including the Bible college I went to for a while.

I guess I thought this was the baptist/anabaptist position on the concept of original sin, so many churches teach it this way!
It is all good. I think many are shoked that some out there do not buy into the tradtional western thought of original sin. In the East they never heard of such a thing until the 13 or 14 hundreds and were shocked by it.

Lord's Envoy said:
Bud I agree with you man
That doesn't suprise you does it? :)
 
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ZiSunka

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Here's my favorite part:

Eve, then by her seducing Adam


Bad Eve! It's all your fault! If you hadn't forced, enticed, tricked Adam into eating that forbidden fruit, we wouldn't be in this condition today! You are a wicked, evil woman, just like all other women! There's not a woman who is any good because you are all like Eve!

Funny, God didn't go for Adam's excuse and held him accountable for his own sin. He knew the fruit was forbidden and ate it anyway. I mean, if you read the account in the Bible, he was right there with Eve and when she gave him a bite, he ate it, willfully, knowingly, then tried to deflect blame by saying that the woman God gave her gave him the fruit so he wasn't responsible. God didn't buy it and threw him out of the garden, too.

I think this kind of thinking probably goes well with the belief in original sin, because original sin allows one to deflect at least some of the blame for one's lost state to someone else, someone so far back in history that they almost don't seem like real peoeple, so it doesn't matter whether they take the blame or not.

Can anyone post scripture that refutes the Ezekial passage?
 
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SumTinWong

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Genesis 3:6 "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."

Some Jews believe that Adam was right there when she was tempted, ate, and did nothing to stop her. He had time to think about it, he was tempted by it as she was, and for whatever reason he gave in. He alone is guilty of that.
 
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BT

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, All

From the LBC:

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )


2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 ) 5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

Waldensian Confessions of Faith, 1120









1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the apostles' creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.

2. We believe that there is one God - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. (Here follows the title of each, exactly conformable to our received canon, but which it is deemed, on that account, quite unnecessary to particularize.)

4. The books above-mentioned teach us: That there is one GOD, almighty, unbounded in wisdom, and infinite in goodness, and who, in His goodness, has made all things. For He created Adam after His own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the Devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.

5. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who received the law, to the end that, knowing their sin by the law, and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplish the law by Himself.

6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born - a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display His grace and mercy towards us.

7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness - our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for their justification.




Peace to u,

Bill


)))shudder(((

I'm cuckoo for cocoa puffs

Ok back to reality....

Now, Bill are you saying that you believe in the entirety of the Apostle's Creed? As noted in the 1st point above? (Not that I find that odd considering the calvinist link to catholicism) But I find it strange that you would adhere to it. It contains at least one flaw that I know of... (if we're talking about the same thing that is...)
 
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Crazy Liz

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lambslove said:
Could it be that he wanted to be wise like God as the serpent promised Eve that she would be if she ate the fruit? Hmm...
... and was too chicken to take the first bite. Maybe he figured he'd reduce his own risk by waiting to see if the woman dropped dead right away.

(BTW, you do know where the "chivalrous" Western tradition of men opening doors for women originated, don't you? The crusaders saw Muslim men doing it and thought it was out of deference for their women. In reality, the Muslim women did it in order to send the less valuable members of their party through a door first, in case there was some danger waiting on the other side.) :o
 
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ZiSunka

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BT said:
Let's not turn this thread into another "equality of women" debate allright?


:topic:

I second that! But the idea that Adam ate because Eve seduced him into it is absurd and a good example of how much some silly teachings that put women into the "sinful" or "evil" or "inferior" class can get hold in people's hearts and not let go. God could hit us over the head with a brick that says, "I don't hate women", and people would to it, "...because they are too inferior for Me to bother with.":doh:
 
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BBAS 64

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BT said:
)))shudder(((



Ok back to reality....

Now, Bill are you saying that you believe in the entirety of the Apostle's Creed? As noted in the 1st point above? (Not that I find that odd considering the calvinist link to catholicism) But I find it strange that you would adhere to it. It contains at least one flaw that I know of... (if we're talking about the same thing that is...)

Good Day, BT

I will have to go back and reread the Creed, I will say this much it is not infallible. I quoted these document as a means to help in the Baptist view of the nature of original sin as they are some of the early documents that are viewed with in Baptist circles.

BT, you have asserted this many times ""(Not that I find that odd considering the calvinist link to catholicism)"" and never "that I can recall" backed it up. That assumes we are using the word catholicism in the same way.

I would love to discuss the Creed with you and understand the error you point to.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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