Baptist By Laws

[HappyHope]

Some family members recently expressed concern about how their pastor has or will soon change their church by laws to include a lifetime pastor appointment clause. Is this a thing? They worry their church is turning into a cult. A chunk of my family attend this church though some have left. Does anyone have experience with such by laws? I’m hoping this is a misunderstanding of some kind.

If not...

Pastor + Dictator = Pastorator?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @HappyHope, just to be clear, this is something that an individual pastor is attempting to do within the confines of his own/local church (IOW, this is not a bylaw change at the denominational level, one that would affect other churches within the same denomination)?

Assuming that it is the former, how does the pastor of this church have the power to make such a change (or is this something that the majority of this church's elder/deacon boards, and the congregation itself, have all agreed to)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - which Baptist denomination is your family's church part of? Thanks again!

 

[HappyHope]

Hello @HappyHope, just to be clear, this is something that an individual pastor is attempting to do within the confines of his own/local church (IOW, this is not a bylaw change at the denominational level, one that would affect other churches within the same denomination)?

Assuming that it is the former, how does the pastor of this church have the power to make such a change (or is this something that the majority of this church's elder/deacon boards, and the congregation itself, have all agreed to)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - which Baptist denomination is your family's church part of? Thanks again!

Im not accusing all Baptists. I grew up Baptist and attended a Baptist university. I’m most comfortable in Baptist churches...unless they hack your computer, lol. No hate for Baptists I assure you. My question comes from wondering what new trends might be afoot. I’m not in the loop in so many ways.

As to the pastor in question, my family mentioned him renaming deacons to be called elders and changing the church by laws to allow for lifetime pastor appointments. They mentioned him not being allowed to be fired, but this sounds so far fetched. Surely, this can’t be happening?

The deacons/elders seem on board somehow I guess. My godly uncle used to be the head deacon until a couple of years ago he told his wife, “I can no longer serve under him.” I don’t know the details exactly.

I’m looking to move to the area but I don’t dare attempt to attend this church for fear I’d be kicked out within a month of Sundays if this stuff is true, lol. I’m too passionate about church stuff like this. Good Lord willing this is not happening. It used to be a sweet little church of godly older folks when I attended it 20 years ago. They were so beautiful and loving. Now it’s very big.

 

[Albion]

Im not accusing all Baptists.

I'm sure that "St_Worm" wasn't saying that. However, there are many different Baptist conventions and also plenty of independent Baptist congregations, and the rules governing by-laws, etc. depend on which is which. I had the same thought when I read the OP.

So that's something for you to check into. Does the pastor (or a compliant board) have the power to do some of this...or not? You said, "They mentioned him not being allowed to be fired, but this sounds so far fetched. Surely, this can’t be happening?" It does sound far fetched, but maybe it is allowed. You need to find out for sure.

 

[A_JAY]

I attended a Baptist Church for 40 years. Our Constitution (bylaws) had a provision for Termination of the Pastorate. It required a 2/3 vote to remove a Pastor and the Church did remove one Pastor. I believe my church required a 3/4 vote to change the Constitution.

I can't imagine my church going for such a thing as lifetime pastorate. To me that sounds more like something Apostolic Churches would do. I would really doubt that the SBC, ABCUSA, GARBC would encourage that. But in the end that would be determined locally.

Most of the larger Baptist denomination churches have local control when it comes to policy, hiring, firing, even doctrine,etc. The only "control" my denomination had over local churches would be if the church took a loan through the denomination

Our Church did go from a Diaconate to Elder. I did not like the move, but there weren't any issues.

 

[BobRyan]

Some family members recently expressed concern about how their pastor has or will soon change their church by laws to include a lifetime pastor appointment clause. Is this a thing? They worry their church is turning into a cult. A chunk of my family attend this church though some have left. Does anyone have experience with such by laws? I’m hoping this is a misunderstanding of some kind.

If not...

Pastor + Dictator = Pastorator?

The church members need to be "wise as serpents harmless as doves", at the same time a Pastor deserves to be paid, have some sort of retirement etc. They should not be viewed as second-class citizens so if the church does not have a denominational structure that hires pastors at a conference level and can provide some sense of stability for hem - then then local church needs to step up without getting to the pastor-is-dictator situation.

 

[HappyHope]

The church members need to be "wise as serpents harmless as doves", at the same time a Pastor deserves to be paid, have some sort of retirement etc. They should not be viewed as second-class citizens so if the church does not have a denominational structure that hires pastors at a conference level and can provide some sense of stability for hem - then then local church needs to step up without getting to the pastor-is-dictator situation.

Maybe it’s a retirement assurance policy? I’m kind of releived if this is the case.

 

[HappyHope]

The church members need to be "wise as serpents harmless as doves", at the same time a Pastor deserves to be paid, have some sort of retirement etc. They should not be viewed as second-class citizens so if the church does not have a denominational structure that hires pastors at a conference level and can provide some sense of stability for hem - then then local church needs to step up without getting to the pastor-is-dictator situation.

As for the “wise as serpents harmless as doves,” I assure you I would likely be forced out without saying a word and not intending harm at all only to help. Perception though....

 

[St_Worm2]

Maybe it’s a retirement assurance policy? I’m kind of releived if this is the case.

I would not have thought that from your description, just FYI. There are churches that are not ruled by their congregations, but by their denominations instead (such churches have no say about who they hire or fire, because that is all done at the denominational or central church government level .. the RCC comes quickly to mind, as does the Episcopal church).

I don't know of any Baptist denominations that take that approach however, and if this church that your family attends is independent of a denomination, then it sounds like a cult to me (at first blush anyway).

Is their church an independent Baptist church, and if it isn't, which denomination is it a part of?

Maybe you should ask a few more questions about what's really going on in your family's church (to get a better/fuller picture)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - just FYI, I've provided retirement packages to all of my full-time employees over the years, but that doesn't mean that I am unable to fire them. Likewise, we provide benefits (including retirement) to all who are in the pastorate at my church (as well to our other full-time employees), but we can, as a congregation, choose to fire them nevertheless (if we ever deem it necessary to do so).

 

[HappyHope]

I would not have thought that from your description, just FYI. There are churches that are not ruled by their congregations, but by their denominations instead (such churches have no say about who they hire or fire, because that is all done at the denominational or central church government level .. the RCC comes quickly to mind, as does the Episcopal church).

I don't know of any Baptist denominations that take that approach however, and if this church that your family attends is independent of a denomination, then it sounds like a cult to me (at first blush anyway).

Is their church an independent Baptist church, and if it isn't, which denomination is it a part of?

Maybe you should ask a few more questions about what's really going on in your family's church (to get a better/fuller picture)?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - just FYI, I've provided retirement packages to all of my full-time employees over the years, but that doesn't mean that I am unable to fire them. Likewise, we provide benefits (including retirement) to all who are in the pastorate at my church (as well to our other full-time employees), but we can, as a congregation, choose to fire them nevertheless (if we ever deem it necessary to do so).

I kind of made it a point not to ask questions. I didn’t want things to get negatively emotional. It was a lighthearted conversation visiting family I hadn’t seen in years. I wouldn’t seriously consider attending that church anyway after visiting it on trips home. What my family said sounded off but I couldn’t be sure.

It used to be a Missionary Baptist Church but in recent years it switched to some form of Southern Baptist. I’m going to optimistically assume the lifetime pastorate thing means some kind of retirement setup. I recall relatives saying the pastor used to get burned out and kept threatening to leave and move to Israel. So, he is likely tired at times and looking to his future in my mind anyway.

I remember him when he was just a youth pastor coming out of the army. I even held one of his now grown kids when he was just a baby. That pastor has come a long way. I just hope he hadn’t gone too far, lol. I’ll watch the situation from afar.

 

[BobRyan]

As for the “wise as serpents harmless as doves,” I assure you I would likely be forced out without saying a word and not intending harm at all only to help. Perception though....

No doubt there is a local congregation here or there that may be unbalanced. I don't know details about that one - but you could always attend a different congregation.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I can't imagine my church going for such a thing as lifetime pastorate. To me that sounds more like something Apostolic Churches would do. I would really doubt that the SBC, ABCUSA, GARBC would encourage that. But in the end that would be determined locally.

As far as most EO churches go, the priest serves with the blessing of his bishop. If the bishop decides that a priest would serve better at a different location, the bishop can reassign the priest. Even bishops do not have a lifetime appointment as they are subject to the patriarch. Recently, we had two bishops "retired" by the archbishop. They get a new title and a location that historically does not have any relevance. This is his new seat in Sardes Turkey:

 

[bbbbbbb]

Baptist churches are independent congregations, answerable to no higher human authority. Thus, it is quite possible for the scenario of the OP to take place. I have observed one local Baptist church split over this very issue.

I also visited a rather large Baptist church in Tennessee in which the pastor in his Sunday morning sermon said, "As Moses was to Israel, so I am to you (the congregation). Every word that proceeds from my lips to be obeyed without question." The family who had invited me to their church later defended his position, much to my amazement. These are the same sort of people who get quite upset over the thought of Papal infallibility.