Baptist belief of Salvation?

[Spence06]

Hey all and to all Merry Christmas!

But I am posting a humble question to further my understanding in the understanding of non-catholic's beliefs on salvation.

I know most if not all non-catholic christians hold the Sola's which include Faith Alone. But I have seen some differing views of Faith. So in a humble request may you humbly set aside your christmas gifts for a second and explain to me what Faith is? Does it includes works? Would I be safe to say a faith needed for salvation needs to be "alive"?(In opposite to James) Just kinda explain what you mean when you say, "Faith Alone".

So I am just wondering one of those random thoughts because when I discuss with non-catholics we normally end up agreeing with each other and believe a very close thing but I think the big deal is in the wording on how the Catholics and non-catholics word what they believe.

So what do you think and may you answer my questions?

So thats it from me. Thank you so much for the time that you have given to reading this post!

God bless you for your time and God love you!

-Neil

 

[daveleau]

Faith is more than knowledge, for sure. Satan has full knowledge of God and Christ. Faith is believing that Christ died on the cross for our sins. If we believe that Christ is our Messiah and ask the Holy Spirit to come into our lives and save us, then we have met the full requirement for Salvation (Rom 10:4,13, John 3:16). Christ's blood on the cross is enough (2 Cor 12:9). Works are nothing and nothing can improve upon the sacrifice of Christ, hence nothing else is needed(Eph 2:8-10, Rom 11:6). Also, the sins that Jesus died for are all future sins, meaning that Christ did not die for the sins that you committed before you asked for salvation, but for all of your sins (Rom 5:15-21). We are dead to sin once we are saved (Rom 6:11,12). When we do go against God's will and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are not losing our salvation (Heb 13:5 John 14:8,, but diminishing our riches and blessings in Heaven. Also, Salvation can only be received by a conscious and premeditated choice of the person in question. A person can not be prayed into Heaven by other Christians, nor can the choice of a parent cause Salvation in the life of a child.

Often people get confused because Paul says in Romans that works are not needed, but James says faith without works is dead. The authors do not contradict, but talk of different issues. Paul tells us that works are not needed for salvation. James tells us that our faith can not bear fruit (other followers) if we do not work. James says NOTHING about salvation and that is not the intent.

The Sola idea does not come into play here. No matter what Christian group you are in (Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Messianic, Catholic or Orthodox, etc), Scripture has the paramount authority. Tradition that is desirable to God NEVER contradicts Scripture. If tradition teaches one thing and Scripture teaches another, then the tradition MUST be cast off, for it is false. The idea or tradition that faith alone is not enough is not Scriptural and should be treated in the above manner, if held by any Christian group.

God bless you, Neil and Merry Christmas,
Dave

BTW, I like your avatar.

 

[BT]

I'm studying this passage (and others like it)... fascinating stuff

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul states we are saved by grace because of our faith. The next verse states that God is going to give us works to do as a result of his saving grace and our faith.

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

It seems then that these works come later, that is after our saving Grace. Hence when James says show me your faith, and I'll show you my faith with works. In other words James is living out the works that God had prepared him to do.

So to sum that up, our works are a byproduct of our salvation. A faith that bears no fruit is absoloutly dead.

 

[BT]

"Works are the fruit of salvation not the root"

umm... "Eastons Illustrations" (whew the brain is working...)

 

[aReformedPatriot]

dont pull a neuron now

 

[Spence06]

Hey All! I hope everyone had a great Christmas Morning and everyone was able to go to Church to rejoice over the birth of our Lord! Also that everyone got something good from Santa.

But just some follow up questions for clarification and I hope noone gets the impression that I am debating. Because I assure you I am not, just for clarification as the rules of this boards allows. I really don't want to step on toes here, so I am doing the best I can. I don't venture much into other's homes so this is a different for me.

When You say, "A faith that bears no fruit is absoloutly dead."

Would that mean one must produce works? Would this be in agreement with the Catholic description of Salvation in a sense?

"Works are the fruit of salvation not the root"

May I humbly ask, if one is able to seperate works and faith? Can it be said that Faith working through Love is the one that saves?

Also, is my impression that you believe that Salvation is a single moment in time, not a process accurate? As this would be considered Once Saved, Always Saved?

Thank you so much for your time again, and I hope that everyone has a blessed Christmas Day! I am just posting because I have time in between family get togethers.

BTW, I like your avatar.

Thank you


God bless you and God love you!

-Neil

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

 

[Gwenyfur]

It is possible, I believe, to separate works and faith. For example, even an athiest can give a blanket or a meal to a homeless person. A kind and good work that gives others the impression of him being a "good person". This doesn't mean the person was one of faith.

But, the same action from a Christian, would also encompass a sharing of the Gospel and love of Jesus Christ. A message of hope. That I believe is the fruit we are to show. The planting of seeds for others to water, harvest and grow.



Remember Matthew 7:21-23

Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdome of heaven; but he that doesth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy neam? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many can say they are Christians, many say they are Buddhists, Athiests etc...but works that don't encompass the sharing of God's Word and the miracle of eternal life through Jesus Christ, are doing works without faith. The work of the "dead faith" mentioned in James.

Salvation itself is a single moment in time. That moment where you submist your life to His will, and His direction and accept and acknowledge that we need Him to deliver us from our own sin and folly. The Christian life, the removing of the old and taking on the new is the process of living a Godly life. Time in His Word, prayer and ministry is the process. Which of course directly relates to the Work.

Romans 6:6-11
"Knowing this, that our old man in crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon yee also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Hesus Christ our Lord."

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I have heard many many Catholics say.........faith alone to us who are born again believers. The born again believers say.........works alone will not get you to heaven.
Both of our churches suffer from the same kind of people, those who rely on works to get themselves to heaven and never really accepting the work Christ did for us, and those who just confess with thier mouth but really have no heart. Anyone can say they believe in Christ. Man looks on the outward appearance and God looks on the heart.
In a nutshell, Catholics believe salvation is a process and born agian believers believe that salvation is an event, hence the term born again.
It does not take a life time to be born again, you either are or you are not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

There are many that can say, ya I am saved........and not do anything for the Lord just like there are those who say...........ya I am going to heaven, I am a Catholic and never go to church except on Christmas and Easter.
There are people like this in each church. Those who are in the will of God, follow God, and obey Him and serve HIM.
Ps. Baptism would be concidered a work.

 

[Spence06]

Thank you so much for all your answers so far. But just a few more questions and I promise I'll stop then.

Is there a difference between Justification and being "Saved"?

Can a Catholic be born again? As my sig. says but yet believe Salvation is a free gift of Jesus's cross it just depends on the state of our heart at the end of our life. I believe its grace alone that saves, and that works alone are nothing, faith alone is nothing, but Faith working through Love(which would produce works as it would be following the will of God) is the one that saves. Would I be considered Born Again?

*I only stated what I believe in a very short summary for better information to what I believe so you may properly answer my question. Not the intention to entertain what I believe or debate it, just to further your understanding so you have the facts so you can better answer.

I am a Catholic and never go to church except on Christmas and Easter.

Oh man, I know what you mean! Last night our Church was packed and I've never seen those people there in my life.

Baptism would be concidered a work.

So this would have to lead to a question, Is baptism needed to enter heaven or any sacraments?

Thank you all again, I hope I am not bothering any of you. God bless you all and thank you again!

God bless you and God Love you!

-Neil

 

[Gwenyfur]

Anyone can be born again. Doesn't matter what denomination you claim. Salvation is a matter of your heart, and between you and God. It's not for others to say or "judge".
Anyhow, for baptists, baptism is a step of obedience. It's not a requirement for salvation. We are baptized as Jesus was baptized. By water. The symbology being that as we are dunked we are dieing to ourselves, and as we are raised, we are raising up to our lives in and for Him...

Anyone can enter the kingdom of Heaven, if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Messiah. Again, salvation is a matter of the heart, the soul, and completely between you and Jesus.

Hope this helps to clarify?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Thank you so much for all your answers so far. But just a few more questions and I promise I'll stop then.

Is there a difference between Justification and being "Saved"?

Can a Catholic be born again? As my sig. says but yet believe Salvation is a free gift of Jesus's cross it just depends on the state of our heart at the end of our life. I believe its grace alone that saves, and that works alone are nothing, faith alone is nothing, but Faith working through Love(which would produce works as it would be following the will of God) is the one that saves. Would I be considered Born Again?

*I only stated what I believe in a very short summary for better information to what I believe so you may properly answer my question. Not the intention to entertain what I believe or debate it, just to further your understanding so you have the facts so you can better answer.


Oh man, I know what you mean! Last night our Church was packed and I've never seen those people there in my life.


So this would have to lead to a question, Is baptism needed to enter heaven or any sacraments?

Thank you all again, I hope I am not bothering any of you. God bless you all and thank you again!

God bless you and God Love you!

-Neil

No we believe Baptism isnt nesscary for salvation, yet at the same time someone who is not baptized is being disobediant to our Lord. Why anyone would not want to be baptized is beyond me.

And your right, part of it is a matter of the heart, Jesus must be the Lord of ones life:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

A believeing heart, and a confession that Jesus is Lord of your life is all thats needed for salvation. It is truly a wonderful thing. I wish I had time to go into more detail before I have to goto work, but Im sure someone could get into a bit more.

I think Faith and works are seperate yet intertwined. Because at the outset, it is by your faith that you recieve grace (Eph 2:8), but after that God is going to equip you to do the work of the Kingdom. I suppose you can ignore that, but would you really be born again if you dont want to do what God would have you do? (*cough E&C christians cough*)Now, you may ask, what are these works? Well very simply the work we are commanded to do is go out and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:18).

Perhaps you could give us an example of some of the works catholics do, and what happens when you do them? Since I'm asking you, I dont think one would harp on you for debating as its a genuine question and will help us in our discussion. I'll leave it up to you though.

Merry Christmas, its off to work I go

- Mark.

 

[RED that's ME]

Spence I'm glad you are interested in how Baptist view being a christian.

We differ on the fact on becoming a Christian. I know Catholics belief that being baptized as a baby makes them a christian but Baptist don't believe it that way.

We believe that a person must be able to see & acknowledge they are a sinner in need of a Savior. You must be old enough to make a conscience decision.
[bible]Romans 5:8[/bible]
[bible]Romans 6:23[/bible]
We are not saved by giving God anything, but rather by receiving His gift of eternal life [bible]Ephesians 2:8-9[/bible] Remember also that the human heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked [bible]Jereremiah 17:9[/bible]. Romans 10:10 tells us that with the heart man believes unto righteousness, but the nonbeliever is unable to give his heart to God.
[bible]Romans 10:9-13[/bible]
You must believe and confess that Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
There's nothing anyone does to deserve the FREE gift of God that includes Baptism, communion or any other thing someone might say. If someone gives you a gift you don't pay them for it. If someone gave up their life so you could live there is no way you could repay it. You accept/receive that FREE gift. Christ paid the awful penalty for sin--death. Note the emphasis also that He paid the price in full. There is nothing left to pay, to do, to join, or to earn. We must only receive Him and trust in what He accomplished for us at Calvary. We are justified "freely by His grace" (Rom. 3:24). He loved us while we were yet sinners. His love was not based on any goodness on our part. He loved us because He wanted to save us and make our salvation possible by paying the price of our sin on the cross [bible]1 Peter 2:24[/bible]. The urgency of a person believing is important! There is no promise of tomorrow, or some future opportunity. If a person isn't a Christian, "now" is the best time of all to receive Christ. [bible]2 Corinthians 6:2[/bible].

Because of the debt that Jesus Christ paid there is NO way to pay it back and as Christians we should in response of that "free gift" from that point on make him the Lord of our lives and follow God and his commandments for us.

 

[daveleau]

Hey All! I hope everyone had a great Christmas Morning and everyone was able to go to Church to rejoice over the birth of our Lord! Also that everyone got something good from Santa.

But just some follow up questions for clarification and I hope noone gets the impression that I am debating. Because I assure you I am not, just for clarification as the rules of this boards allows. I really don't want to step on toes here, so I am doing the best I can. I don't venture much into other's homes so this is a different for me.

When You say, "A faith that bears no fruit is absoloutly dead."

Would that mean one must produce works? Would this be in agreement with the Catholic description of Salvation in a sense?



May I humbly ask, if one is able to seperate works and faith? Can it be said that Faith working through Love is the one that saves?

Also, is my impression that you believe that Salvation is a single moment in time, not a process accurate? As this would be considered Once Saved, Always Saved?

Thank you so much for your time again, and I hope that everyone has a blessed Christmas Day! I am just posting because I have time in between family get togethers.



Thank you


God bless you and God love you!

-Neil

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

First, I'd like to say that your posting is a model of what should be done. Thank you for the great example you are setting.

Works has nothing to do with Salvation. Faith is all that is needed. To please God in realms other than salvation, for Salvation is a gift of grace, we do need to do works, but only to bring others to Him and to make Him happy. If we do not do any works at all, we are still saved and go to Heaven, but the faith that we had produced no fruit (dead).

Faith doesn't do work. Faith is the belief that Jesus Christ is our Savior. It can do no work other than satisfy the requirements as put forth in Scripture for Salvation.

You are only covered by the Blood of Christ once. It is the instant that the Holy Spirit enters you that you are saved. Salvation is absolutely not a process in Baptist circles. Salvation occurs once and is never lost. No one is worthy of Salvation because we have all sinned, every one of us. No amount of "good" that we do could ever change that. God's Salvation is a gift and Jesus says that He will never leave us, nor forsake us.

We must be very careful about thinking works save us. This is bordering on a non-Christian ideal and may have ramifications on the faith of the believer as to whether they can be saved. Alarm bells went off in my head when you asked that last question. (I'm not making a judgment of this group of believers or on you yourself, Spencer, that thinks this, but simply saying that this is pretty far from the Christian ideal of Salvation. This is not something I would take lightly, because if you get it wrong, you have the rest of eternity to think about it.) I'd suggest reading all the Scripture on this topic instead of relying on the one verse in James. This is one verse that actually has nothing to do with Salvation, but with Faith. You must have faith to receive Salvation, but you must also continue to have faith to do work for God, even though you are already irreconcilably saved. The work you do after you are Saved has nothing to do with your Salvation. Jesus' blood was much much more powerful than all the good works that we can do. No amount of good works can wipe away a single sin that we have done. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that. Typically, I do not say X or Y is wrong, because I try to have respect for other's ideas. But there is a point where you can not beat around the bush because of the importance of an issue. You absolutely must ask for Jesus Christ to come into your heart and save you. Once that is done, then the Holy Spirit will fill you and you are Saved. Works has nothing to do with this and if you rely on works, then Scripture says that you will be condemned.

I will pray for your understanding of Scripture in the way God intended. Here's a list of Scripture on Salvation from Nave's Topical Bible. Truly compare them and decide how much of it says we have to work for our salvation.

Gen_12:1; Gen_12:3; Exo_15:2; Deu_30:19-20; Deu_32:15; Psa_95:1; 2Sa_14:14; 1Ki_8:41-43; 1Ch_16:35; 2Ch_6:41; Psa_3:8; Psa_37:39; Psa_36:8-9; Psa_46:4; Psa_63:5-6; Psa_65:4; Psa_68:18-20; Psa_86:13; Psa_90:14; Psa_91:16; Psa_98:2-3; Psa_106:8; Psa_107:9; Psa_121:1-8; Psa_132:16; Pro_1:20-21; Pro_8:1-5; Pro_9:1-6; Isa_1:18; Isa_2:5; Isa_25:6-7; Isa_29:18-19; Isa_29:24; Isa_32:1-4; Isa_35:8; Isa_44:3; Isa_45:17; Isa_46:12-13; Isa_49:10-11; Isa_50:10; Isa_51:4-5; Isa_52:10; Isa_52:15; Isa_55:1-3; Isa_55:6-7; Isa_56:1; Isa_56:6-8; Isa_57:18-19; Isa_61:1-3; Isa_63:9; Jer_3:23; Jer_21:8; Eze_18:32; Joe_2:32; Amo_5:4; Zec_14:8; Mal_4:2; Mat_1:21; Mat_3:9; Mat_11:28-30; Mat_18:14; Mat_21:31; Mat_22:9-10; Mat_22:14; Mat_23:37; Mat_24:14; Mar_2:17; Luk_5:31-32; Mar_16:15-16; Mat_28:19; Luk_2:10; Luk_2:31-32; Luk_3:6; Luk_7:47; Luk_13:29-30; Luk_14:16-24; Luk_15:2; Luke 15:4-32; Luk_19:10; Luk_24:47; Joh_1:7; Joh_3:14-17; Joh_4:14; Joh_4:22; Joh_5:40; Joh_6:35; Joh_6:37; Joh_7:37-38; Joh_10:16; Joh_11:51-52; Joh_12:32; Joh_15:4-5; Act_2:39; Act_4:12; Act_5:20; Act_11:17-18; Act_13:26; Act_13:38-39; Act_13:47; Act_15:7-9; Act_15:11; Act_16:17; Act_16:30-31; Act_20:21; Act_28:28; Rom_1:5; Rom_1:14; Rom_1:16-17; Rom_2:26; Rom_3:21-26; Rom_3:28-30; Rom 4:1-25; Rom_5:1-2; Rom_5:15-21; Rom_7:24-25; Rom_9:30-33; Rom_10:4; Rom_10:8-13; Rom 11:1-36; Rom_15:9; Rom_15:16; 1Co_1:18; 1Co_6:11; 2Co_5:17; 2Co_5:20; 2Co_6:1; 2Co_6:17-18; 2Co_7:10; Gal_1:4; Gal_2:16; Gal 3:1-28; Eph_1:9-10; Eph_1:13; Eph_2:1; Eph_2:3-5; Eph_2:8-9; Eph_2:14-15; Eph_2:17; Eph_3:6; Eph_3:9; Eph_5:14; Phi_2:12; Phi_3:7-11; Col_1:5-6; Col_1:20-23; Col_1:26-27; Col_3:11; 1Th_5:8-10; 2Th_2:13-14; 1Ti_1:13; 1Ti_1:15-16; 1Ti_2:3-6; 1Ti_4:10; 2Ti_1:9-10; 2Ti_2:10; 2Ti_3:15; ***_2:11; ***_3:3-7; Heb_1:14; Heb_2:3; Heb_2:10; Heb_4:1-10; Heb_5:9; Heb_7:25; Jam_1:21; 1Pe_1:5; 1Pe_1:9-10; 2Pe_3:9; 2Pe_3:15; 1Jo_2:25; 1Jo_4:9-10; 1Jo_5:11; Jud_1:3; Rev_3:17-18; Rev_3:20; Rev_5:9; Rev_7:9-10; Rev_14:6; Rev_21:6; Rev_22:17


Conditions of
General references
Mat_3:2; Mat_18:3; Mat_19:16-21; Luk_18:18-26; Mat_24:13; Mar_1:4; Luk_3:8; Luk_14:25-33; Joh_3:3-12; Joh_3:14-18; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:28-29; Joh_6:47; Joh_9:35; Joh_11:25-26; Joh_12:36; Joh_20:31; Act_2:38; Act_3:19; Act_3:23


Plan of
General references
Mar_4:11; Joh_6:44-45; Joh_6:37; Joh_6:65; Joh_17:4; Joh_18:11; Joh_19:28-30; Act_3:18; Act_17:3; Rom_1:16-17; Rom_10:3-9; Rom_16:25-26; 1Co_1:21-25; 1Co_2:7-9; 2Co_5:18-19; Gal_4:4-5; Eph 1:3-23; Eph_2:4-10; Eph_3:1-11; Eph_6:19; Col_1:19-23; Col_1:26-27; 2Th_2:13-14; 1Ti_3:16; 2Ti_1:9-10; Heb_2:9-10; Heb_2:14-18; Heb_6:17-20; Rev_5:2-5; Rev_10:7

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Is there a difference between Justification and being "Saved"?

Can a Catholic be born again? As my sig. says but yet believe Salvation is a free gift of Jesus's cross it just depends on the state of our heart at the end of our life. I believe its grace alone that saves, and that works alone are nothing, faith alone is nothing, but Faith working through Love(which would produce works as it would be following the will of God) is the one that saves. Would I be considered Born Again?



So this would have to lead to a question, Is baptism needed to enter heaven or any sacraments?

Being born again is an event. Remember what Christ said in that verse I posted? He said you MUST be born again to enter heaven. There was no list of things that he mentioned. He said only one thing.........born again.
That is the first thing that you need to understand. Its not a life time of works or sacarments, its a time where you say to Jesus, YES, what you did was enough to save my life from Hell!
Its reconizing that without recieving Christ as your saviour, you could not make it to heaven any other way. I used to think that my confirmation was my profession of faith to accepting the Lord as my saviour. Now I think not and here are 2 reasons why. It was not a decision that I made by myself and said, yes, I am ready. I had no idea that I was a sinner that needed salvation, and confirmation in the church is a sacarment which is a work without faith for many people. In another nutshell, sacarments are works without faith. Atleast in my case, and most of my families cases they were.
Was there a time in your life where you accepted Christ as your saviour and accepted what He did on the cross for you? Do you realize that if you have never accepted Christ that you are going to hell? Do you realize that its your sin that will get you to hell? Do you know that any work that you do no matter WHAT that work is, it cannot get you to heaven?
How could you prove that you are born again? Adk yourself that question.
This answers your question about baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience. Its an act resulting from salvation.
Spence, if you are born again and want to get baptized, some baptist churches such as mine will baptize anyone who has made thier salvation public without going through any classes or becomming a member of the church first. My church does it the bible way. They dunk whoever wants to be dunked anytime the believer wants. One man was leaving the St. Louis area and had just gotten saved. Our pastor baptised him on a Monday with just 2 other people there. Anyone who claims that they are born again and has accepted Christ as thier saviour can and should be baptized. Because its the first act of obedience and there fore, God will bless you tremendously.
GEL
Ps, I was a born again Catholic.

 

[Spence06]

Okay, thank you so much so far. And I promise this is my last question. I know I keep reading and then another question pops in my head.

What role does Love play in ones salvation? Is Love more important then Faith or can Love be considered part of one's faith? IS love needed?

Also;

Baptism is an act of obedience

Can one enter heaven with disobedience(disobedience would be no baptism, no sacraments, no church, no love to one another, ect.) to the Lord to the very last second of his life? But yet proclaim he loves God.

May i humbly request that be a short answer, I am getting slightly confused with some answers because they are so long. They are extremely helpful and I am learning a lot but I just request a simple answer for that one. I am tired, Didn't have all my cofee yet. So you know how it can be. Thank you so much!

Alarm bells went off in my head when you asked that last question.

I am slightly confused, do you mean when I asked about salvation not being a process? Not debating, but I am not sure.

Spence I'm glad you are interested in how Baptist view being a christian.

Heather, I am glad you are the one responding! I stand by saying your in my top three of members at CF!

Hope this helps to clarify?

Yes it does, thank you!

Perhaps you could give us an example of some of the works catholics do, and what happens when you do them?

Works...hmm...if you mean "doing good" we do just that. We have always food drives, money collections, and you know the millions of Catholic charities across the globe.

Well I don't consider the sacraments a work, because God commanded us to do them, so I wouldn't think they are works that we do, however what happens when we recieve them is a way in which we obtain actual grace. Catholic teaching has two different graces btw which are Sanctifying grace and Actual Grace. Actual grace is the kick in the rear that God may give you to do something, Sanctifying Grace is one which we are infused with at the time of Baptism which sustains us. Also called, "State of Grace".

The works would just Love of God and one another. If one accomplishes these two things, he can be pretty comfortable in going to heaven. I think some get the impression Catholics need works or something, which your question makes me feel you think that or something along those lines. Catholic's teach that one needs an obediance of Faith. The Catholic Church is big on Grace and cooperation with that Grace. That is where God will judge you in my humble opinion in our openness to his Gifts and to his Love. As we do not work on our own, but only allow God to work through us. But if we do not allow God to work through us, I don't think that would be very nice to him. Saying, "No thanks God, I don't want your gift of grace. I have my own plans."

However, as scripture says whatever we do the least of our Brothers, we do for Christ and I believe an act of following God's words in scripture is essential. Not to perfection or anything, just follow it to the best of your ability while cooperation with God's grace. God is not grading us on our works, but he looking at how we treat the gift of salvation that we are all handed by Jesus.

Does that kinda help you with your question? I was not sure how I was going to answer it.

I just hope I don't wear out my welcome in your house. I thank you all and I only went off in that tangent because of the question asked. I hope I am not over stepping my bounds. Thank you all again so much!

Hope Santa was good to you all yesterday!

God bless you and God Love you!

-Neil

 

[Gwenyfur]

Love part of Salvation:

1John 3:1-2
"Beloved what manner of love hte Father hadth bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore hte world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is."

1John 3:13-16
"Marvel not my brethren if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love of God becasue he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

I may be off here, but to me these passages tell me that without love, salvation cannot be present. Our salvation is based soley on God's loving us so much that He sacrificed his only Son...John 3:16

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Can one enter heaven with disobedience(disobedience would be no baptism, no sacraments, no church, no love to one another, ect.) to the Lord to the very last second of his life? But yet proclaim he loves God.



I am slightly confused, do you mean when I asked about salvation not being a process? Not debating, but I am not sure.
-Neil

That is a tricky question Niel. The bible says, many will call upon the name of the Lord, but the Lord will say, I never knew you. As I stated before, Man looks on the outward appeance,(works) and God looks upon the heart(faith). If the persons heart is right and is spiritually circumsised, then yes they are saved and going to heaven. That is something that we as men and women cannot do that is, seeing the heart of the believer. All we can see is thier works. If a person stands before a congregation and proclaims that they are saved and proclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, how can we say that person is not saved?

I am not sure what you mean about salvation not being a process. What are you saying? Are you saying you believe what Jesus taught, that you must be born again to enter heaven?
GEL

 

[Matthan]

Neil, just go back near the top and re-read Dave's entry. It answers every one of your questions completely. Check out his citations for confirmation, but rely on his (Holy Spirit) guided words for your own edification.

Matthan <J><

 

[Terri]

Hey all and to all Merry Christmas!

But I am posting a humble question to further my understanding in the understanding of non-catholic's beliefs on salvation.

I know most if not all non-catholic christians hold the Sola's which include Faith Alone. But I have seen some differing views of Faith. So in a humble request may you humbly set aside your christmas gifts for a second and explain to me what Faith is? Does it includes works? Would I be safe to say a faith needed for salvation needs to be "alive"?(In opposite to James) Just kinda explain what you mean when you say, "Faith Alone".

So I am just wondering one of those random thoughts because when I discuss with non-catholics we normally end up agreeing with each other and believe a very close thing but I think the big deal is in the wording on how the Catholics and non-catholics word what they believe.

So what do you think and may you answer my questions?

So thats it from me. Thank you so much for the time that you have given to reading this post!

God bless you for your time and God love you!

-Neil

This is the way I look at salvation Neil:

You die, your standing at the entrance to heaven, and your asked why you should be allowed to enter.

The only right answer is that Jesus's death on the cross paid for all of your sins.

There is absolutely nothing that we can do to have our sins forgiven except trusting in Jesus's sacrifice.

So, it is by faith alone (trusting that Jesus' death on the cross paid for all of our sins and we can add nothing to His finished work) that we are saved.

Now, after we are saved we will have works for which we will receive rewards in heaven. BUT, these works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.