Baptism

[heal103]

I have a bit of a complicated church history.. I was raised Catholic and baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. At age 15, my family joined a Baptist church where I was baptized again by immersion. I have been a member of a lcms church for the past 20 years. I am going to israel on a tour next fall and part of the tour is a visit to thr jordan river where you can be baptized if you want to. I Would love to experience baptism in such a Holy place but can I? Is it allowed in the lutheran church to be baptized more than once? This is a once in a lifetime but I understand there is a belief in one baptism. What do you think? Is there anything wrong with getting baptized again in the jordan river? Thanks!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have a bit of a complicated church history.. I was raised Catholic and baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. At age 15, my family joined a Baptist church where I was baptized again by immersion. I have been a member of a lcms church for the past 20 years. I am going to israel on a tour next fall and part of the tour is a visit to thr jordan river where you can be baptized if you want to. I Would love to experience baptism in such a Holy place but can I? Is it allowed in the lutheran church to be baptized more than once? This is a once in a lifetime but I understand there is a belief in one baptism. What do you think? Is there anything wrong with getting baptized again in the jordan river? Thanks!

Water baptism is outwardly, Holy Spirit baptism is inwardly, and this is really all that matters.
Blessings

 

[Of the Kingdom]

According to the Catholic church, your baptism as an infant was of great importance to your spiritual future. They teach that the benefit of baptism does not depend on your age or belief at the time, and that there cannot be any spiritual benefit of a second baptism.

According to the Baptists, you should have believed in and trusted Christ *before* you were baptized. They would claim that your infant baptism was invalid since you did not believe, so the baptism at the age of 15 would be your first baptism. If you did not truly believe at that time, then (in the Baptists' opinion) that baptism would also be invalid. If you did believe, they would claim the baptism to be something Christ asked us all to do, and beneficial to those obeying, but not *directly* the cause of a spiritual benefit. The Baptists would say that a valid baptism is a once-in-a-lifetime event.

As long as you are aware that a dip in the Jordan does *not* constitute a Christian baptism for you, and you do not misrepresent it to others, you probably can go through the ceremony without concern. It would be similar to renewing wedding vows.

If you have any doubt whether you truly believed at age 15, then you may benefit from a real baptism in the Jordan, and should openly proclaim that fact.

In the final analysis, I would recommend seeking spiritual counsel about this, so you can be confident you are doing the right thing. I suspect the tour operators understand the Jordan "baptism" may be a first-time valid baptism for some and a renewal for others, and will advise you accordingly.

In the final analysis, only the Holy Spirit's guidance should be trusted to allow you to do the right thing with a clear conscience. Whether you avoid the ceremony, treat it as a renewal, or acknowledge it as a valid baptism, ought to depend on how you understand your relationship to Jesus and your witness to others.

 

[heal103]

According to the Catholic church, your baptism as an infant was of great importance to your spiritual future. They teach that the benefit of baptism does not depend on your age or belief at the time, and that there cannot be any spiritual benefit of a second baptism.

According to the Baptists, you should have believed in and trusted Christ *before* you were baptized. They would claim that your infant baptism was invalid since you did not believe, so the baptism at the age of 15 would be your first baptism. If you did not truly believe at that time, then (in the Baptists' opinion) that baptism would also be invalid. If you did believe, they would claim the baptism to be something Christ asked us all to do, and beneficial to those obeying, but not *directly* the cause of a spiritual benefit. The Baptists would say that a valid baptism is a once-in-a-lifetime event.

As long as you are aware that a dip in the Jordan does *not* constitute a Christian baptism for you, and you do not misrepresent it to others, you probably can go through the ceremony without concern. It would be similar to renewing wedding vows.

If you have any doubt whether you truly believed at age 15, then you may benefit from a real baptism in the Jordan, and should openly proclaim that fact.

In the final analysis, I would recommend seeking spiritual counsel about this, so you can be confident you are doing the right thing. I suspect the tour operators understand the Jordan "baptism" may be a first-time valid baptism for some and a renewal for others, and will advise you accordingly.

In the final analysis, only the Holy Spirit's guidance should be trusted to allow you to do the right thing with a clear conscience. Whether you avoid the ceremony, treat it as a renewal, or acknowledge it as a valid baptism, ought to depend on how you understand your relationship to Jesus and your witness to others.

 

[heal103]

Yes I absolutely believed when I was baptized in the Baptist church. I even took a class with the pastor. I professed that I believed that Jesus was the Son of God and I have received Him as Lord and Savior.

 

[TKA_TN]

Your first baptism is all that’s “necessary.” IIRC, the LCMS teaches one baptism and would probably say any baptisms after that don’t “undue” the first one. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong on that.

 

[tampasteve]

LCMS (and most all Lutherans) would believe the first, Catholic, baptism to be the one that actually was the baptism. The Baptist one was just a sign of faith, if you approach this as just an immersion in the same waters that Jesus had his Baptism that is OK, but to think of it as a new or third Baptism or anything other than a nice immersion would be incorrect in Lutheran thought.

 

[Athanasius377]

I have a bit of a complicated church history.. I was raised Catholic and baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. At age 15, my family joined a Baptist church where I was baptized again by immersion. I have been a member of a lcms church for the past 20 years. I am going to israel on a tour next fall and part of the tour is a visit to thr jordan river where you can be baptized if you want to. I Would love to experience baptism in such a Holy place but can I? Is it allowed in the lutheran church to be baptized more than once? This is a once in a lifetime but I understand there is a belief in one baptism. What do you think? Is there anything wrong with getting baptized again in the jordan river? Thanks!

Hello there!

The short answer to your question is no, you cannot be baptized again. You baptism while you when an infant was a valid baptism. It would be like telling God he couldn't accomplish what he said we would the first time. Recall the words of the Nicene Creed. . . I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. . . Take a dip in the Jordan if you want but you cannot be baptized again.. All you will do is get wet. Enjoy your trip as I might be a little envious . Cheers and have a wonderful and safe trip.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have a bit of a complicated church history.. I was raised Catholic and baptized as an infant in the Catholic church. At age 15, my family joined a Baptist church where I was baptized again by immersion. I have been a member of a lcms church for the past 20 years. I am going to israel on a tour next fall and part of the tour is a visit to thr jordan river where you can be baptized if you want to. I Would love to experience baptism in such a Holy place but can I? Is it allowed in the lutheran church to be baptized more than once? This is a once in a lifetime but I understand there is a belief in one baptism. What do you think? Is there anything wrong with getting baptized again in the jordan river? Thanks!

Your first baptism (in the Catholic Church) was your baptism. When you were re-baptized at the Baptist church it may have had personal meaning for you, but can't be called a baptism properly speaking because you are already baptized. Once baptized, always baptized.

A blessing with water at the Jordan would be perfectly fine, or something along those lines. But a baptism at the Jordan wouldn't be a baptism--as again you've already been baptized. It can be a great opportunity to remember your baptism, to reaffirm your baptism however.

Of course, the reasoning behind all of this isn't--obviously--to get all persnickety over little details; but rather because we are to confess God's word. We can rest confidently in God's word and promises to us which He has attached to His Sacraments. We say your first baptism is the only baptism that counts and which matters, because God Himself stakes His own word and claim upon it--you are baptized, remember this, trust in the One who has spoken to you that you are His, you are clothed with Christ and His righteousness, you are God's precious child. You can freely and boldly say "I am baptized!" words against which no earthly power can stand. You belong to Jesus Christ now and forever. Rejoice!

Remember your baptism, take every opportunity to do so. Rejoice in the Lord who has saved you, and who even now saves you. With His powerful word of grace in the Gospel, when you receive His very flesh and blood in the Supper. The Good Shepherd is speaking, we are the sheep of His pasture, and His word to us is life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[heal103]

Your first baptism (in the Catholic Church) was your baptism. When you were re-baptized at the Baptist church it may have had personal meaning for you, but can't be called a baptism properly speaking because you are already baptized. Once baptized, always baptized.

A blessing with water at the Jordan would be perfectly fine, or something along those lines. But a baptism at the Jordan wouldn't be a baptism--as again you've already been baptized. It can be a great opportunity to remember your baptism, to reaffirm your baptism however.

Of course, the reasoning behind all of this isn't--obviously--to get all persnickety over little details; but rather because we are to confess God's word. We can rest confidently in God's word and promises to us which He has attached to His Sacraments. We say your first baptism is the only baptism that counts and which matters, because God Himself stakes His own word and claim upon it--you are baptized, remember this, trust in the One who has spoken to you that you are His, you are clothed with Christ and His righteousness, you are God's precious child. You can freely and boldly say "I am baptized!" words against which no earthly power can stand. You belong to Jesus Christ now and forever. Rejoice!

Remember your baptism, take every opportunity to do so. Rejoice in the Lord who has saved you, and who even now saves you. With His powerful word of grace in the Gospel, when you receive His very flesh and blood in the Supper. The Good Shepherd is speaking, we are the sheep of His pasture, and His word to us is life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[heal103]

Very helpful. Thank you! Can I ask another Question? I have many friends and family who insist that infant baptism is invalid and only immersion by choice is acceptable because that is what the Bible teaches. Believe first then be baptized. To not get rebaptized once you understand the gospel is being disobedient to God. How do i explain and defend infant baptism to those who use scripture to defend choosing baptism by immersion as correct?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Very helpful. Thank you! Can I ask another Question? I have many friends and family who insist that infant baptism is invalid and only immersion by choice is acceptable because that is what the Bible teaches. Believe first then be baptized. To not get rebaptized once you understand the gospel is being disobedient to God. How do i explain and defend infant baptism to those who use scripture to defend choosing baptism by immersion as correct?

Well, in simplest terms, those telling you that the Bible teaches one must first believe and then be baptized are in error--no where does the Bible say that. The Bible records adult converts, of course, especially since the Acts of the Apostles is literally describing the early years of the apostle's ministry. But it also mentions the baptism of entire households. Whether the households mentioned included infants and young children we can't know for certain, but it is entirely possible. The Bible does not say "Only these people can receive baptism, but not these", the Bible does not say, "One must be dunked in water in order for it to be a valid baptism". The Bible simply records Christ's Great Commission that His Church is to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--no discrimination of who can be baptized, no proscription on how to conduct the baptism.

But we can know what the earliest Christians did think and practice here. We have, for example, the Didache, written sometime in the last half of the 1st century, which describes the ideal method of baptizing like so:

"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in moving water. But if you have no moving water, baptize into some other water; and if you have not cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour thrice upon the head into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit." - Didache, 7:1-3

About a century later St. Hippolytus of Rome writes,

"At the hour in which the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows, they shall first pray over the water. When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. Then they shall take off all their clothes. The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water." - Apostolic Traditions, 21, 1-5

Further relevant here is that in Judaism, even today, part of the process of conversion to Judaism involves tevilah, ritual washing in a mikveh (a ritual bath). If parents are converting, the young children will also be included. It is the parents' responsibility of having their young children converted:

Converting Infants and Children | My Jewish Learning

From the above:

"The conversion of a female infant or child according to Conservative and Orthodox practices only requires tevilah (immersion in a ritual bath called a mikveh). A male child also requires immersion in the mikveh."

The baptism of infants and small children in Christianity isn't an innovation or novelty; it's a practice carried over from Judaism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[heal103]

Well, in simplest terms, those telling you that the Bible teaches one must first believe and then be baptized are in error--no where does the Bible say that. The Bible records adult converts, of course, especially since the Acts of the Apostles is literally describing the early years of the apostle's ministry. But it also mentions the baptism of entire households. Whether the households mentioned included infants and young children we can't know for certain, but it is entirely possible. The Bible does not say "Only these people can receive baptism, but not these", the Bible does not say, "One must be dunked in water in order for it to be a valid baptism". The Bible simply records Christ's Great Commission that His Church is to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--no discrimination of who can be baptized, no proscription on how to conduct the baptism.

But we can know what the earliest Christians did think and practice here. We have, for example, the Didache, written sometime in the last half of the 1st century, which describes the ideal method of baptizing like so:

"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in moving water. But if you have no moving water, baptize into some other water; and if you have not cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour thrice upon the head into the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit." - Didache, 7:1-3

About a century later St. Hippolytus of Rome writes,

"At the hour in which the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows, they shall first pray over the water. When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water. Then they shall take off all their clothes. The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family. After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water." - Apostolic Traditions, 21, 1-5

Further relevant here is that in Judaism, even today, part of the process of conversion to Judaism involves tevilah, ritual washing in a mikveh (a ritual bath). If parents are converting, the young children will also be included. It is the parents' responsibility of having their young children converted:

Converting Infants and Children | My Jewish Learning

From the above:

"The conversion of a female infant or child according to Conservative and Orthodox practices only requires tevilah (immersion in a ritual bath called a mikveh). A male child also requires immersion in the mikveh."

The baptism of infants and small children in Christianity isn't an innovation or novelty; it's a practice carried over from Judaism.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you!

 

[Religiot]

Water baptism is outwardly, Holy Spirit baptism is inwardly, and this is really all that matters.
Blessings

I thought the only thing that mattered was to obey Christ.

 

[Religiot]

According to the Catholic church, your baptism as an infant was of great importance to your spiritual future. They teach that the benefit of baptism does not depend on your age or belief at the time, and that there cannot be any spiritual benefit of a second baptism.

According to the Baptists, you should have believed in and trusted Christ *before* you were baptized. They would claim that your infant baptism was invalid since you did not believe, so the baptism at the age of 15 would be your first baptism. If you did not truly believe at that time, then (in the Baptists' opinion) that baptism would also be invalid. If you did believe, they would claim the baptism to be something Christ asked us all to do, and beneficial to those obeying, but not *directly* the cause of a spiritual benefit. The Baptists would say that a valid baptism is a once-in-a-lifetime event.

As long as you are aware that a dip in the Jordan does *not* constitute a Christian baptism for you, and you do not misrepresent it to others, you probably can go through the ceremony without concern. It would be similar to renewing wedding vows.

If you have any doubt whether you truly believed at age 15, then you may benefit from a real baptism in the Jordan, and should openly proclaim that fact.

In the final analysis, I would recommend seeking spiritual counsel about this, so you can be confident you are doing the right thing. I suspect the tour operators understand the Jordan "baptism" may be a first-time valid baptism for some and a renewal for others, and will advise you accordingly.

In the final analysis, only the Holy Spirit's guidance should be trusted to allow you to do the right thing with a clear conscience. Whether you avoid the ceremony, treat it as a renewal, or acknowledge it as a valid baptism, ought to depend on how you understand your relationship to Jesus and your witness to others.

The Spirit says we must obey the Lord for salvation:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." --John 3:36

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." --Mark 16:16

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." --Hebrews 5:9

Only true followers of Christ, will baptize new believers, to do otherwise, is to simply contradict the Lord's plain commands:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." --Matthew 28:19-20

The only thing that matters is obedience to Christ. Period.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I thought the only thing that mattered was to obey Christ.

He has asked us to receive His Holy Spirit.
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!

 

[Of the Kingdom]

The only thing that matters is obedience to Christ. Period.

Absolutely. It is up to each person to read the Bible, pray, and consider advice from others. Ultimately, they must follow their own conscience, according to their belief about what Christ would have them do.

Thank you for emphasizing the importance of Baptism in obedience to Jesus' command. I hope I helped the OP to consider under what conditions they might be considered already baptized. If you have anything to add about that, I'm sure the OP would appreciate it.

 

[Religiot]

Absolutely. It is up to each person to read the Bible, pray, and consider advice from others. Ultimately, they must follow their own conscience, according to their belief about what Christ would have them do.

Thank you for emphasizing the importance of Baptism in obedience to Jesus' command. I hope I helped the OP to consider under what conditions they might be considered already baptized. If you have anything to add about that, I'm sure the OP would appreciate it.

Yes, of course, brother.

Well, very simply, baptism is just the act of a good conscience toward God: without a good conscience toward God, it would be impossible to obey Christ, even in something as simple as baptism.

Moreover, it's not the water that does anything, but the obedience to Christ that does everything:

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21

The only real requirement to be baptized, is to believe, with all of your heart, that Jesus is indeed, the Son of God, the Savior and Lord of the whole world:

"Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." --Acts 8:35-39

Concerning the method of water application, we find, with the above example, that if possible, both the baptizer and the person being baptized should enter the water, but the scripture no where commands this; for when Peter baptized the Centurion and his family, it was not at a body of water, but at their house, requiring any water for baptism to be brought into the house, thus Peter questioned whether anyone would forbid water to baptize these who have believed (Acts 10:47).

Yet concerning how to baptize, we do have the plain command from the Spirit, that it must be in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20).

As an example, when I baptize someone, after they have believed the Gospel, and repented towards God, and have professed to believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God and Savior of the World, I simply immerse them in water, saying, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; and in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, Yehoshua Messiah, and in the name of His Holy Spirit", the Wonderful Counselor--this last part, Wonderful Counselor, I have never said, but intend to say in future baptisms--which brings me to a very important point:

God is not confused, nor could He be made to be confused, Philip baptized in the name of Jesus, and those who were baptized were saved, tho they needed prayer for reception of the Holy Spirit for that reason, yet, they were saved. Furthermore, God knows what we mean when we pray to Him in the name of Jesus, a name that did not even exist before four hundred years ago... ...Without entering into some of the works of Satan for deception, all I need to say here, is that when you believe, you will follow Him, and He, by His Spirit, will lead you into all truth, and none that are His can ever be lost; for those who believe in Him, are known by Him, and His knowledge of us, is our seal in Christ.

PS: By the grace of God I've baptized people in swimming pools, and in a bathtub, and in garbage cans in jail. Where there is a will to obey, God will provide a way.

Godspeed.

 

[TKA_TN]

Moreover, it's not the water that does anything, but the obedience to Christ that does everything:

The water with the word does everything. Baptism isn’t something we do, it’s what God does for us.

Just a reminder, you’re in the Lutheran forum.

 

[Religiot]

The water with the word does everything. Baptism isn’t something we do, it’s what God does for us.

Just a reminder, you’re in the Lutheran forum.

If your statement were true, then the scriptures would be false.

PS: Your "reminder" is obviously a veiled attempt at censorship... ...I don't know of any Lutheran that would object to what I've said--could be you're not really Lutheran.