I was just quoting jmacvols post for him to show him where i got the idea that he was connecting blood with baptism and the reason i thought he was nuts.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Baptism
- Thread starter Meshavrischika
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JamesThaddeusMartin
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Ahh, this must be more of that loving Christian talk.
He may be mistaken, I doubt if he "nuts".
pax
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MamaZ
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Water Baptism is for the remission of sins. Holy Spirit baptism is where we get our cirucmcised heart. This is why John said I baptize with water but there is one that comes after me whos sandals I am not worhthy of that will baptized you in the Holy Spirit and fire. So if you do not have the Holy Spirits baptism then you have not the Spirit of Christ in you.. If one does not have the Holy Spirit baptism then no amount of water baptism will save you.
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Baptism by the Holy Spirit and baptism by water are the same - that is the definition of a Sacrament, God working through material means.
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Christ said we would be baptized by water and the Spirit. Scripture also says "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." The onus is on you to justify multiple baptisms, or to justify that God somehow changed his modus operandi after all those millenia, stopped working through material means, and started working in this vague "spiritual" manner reminiscent of Gnosticism.
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I'm having a hard time understanding why you think the God Who created the Heavens and the earth can't choose to use water as part of His work to save mankind. The scriptures affirm that baptism is a moment of spiritual rebirth. We ask the Holy Spirit to descend and sanctify the water to be used, so that it will be used for God's purpose. His power is present in that water, just as it is in the bread and wine sanctified by the Holy Spirit in communion.
Basil
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MamaZ
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Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
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MamaZ
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Now notice in the above statment that it is not men who will bapitize you with Holy Spirit and fire but Jesus that will.
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In churches that do not believe the power of God is manifested in baptism, and who are separated from the ancient Body of Christ, then it may be an empty ritual. They redefine it to be a public confession of faith before God and man, but that was not it's purpose. We maintain that the Holy Spirit fills the water with God's cleansing power. It is a gift to man from God, for man's rebirth.
Basil
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In our faith, it's still held to be a joyful and powerful occasion. We just celebrated the feast of Penecost last Sunday and three people were baptized into Christ at the beginning of the service. The whole community celebrates this as an important occassion, not just for the individuals, but for the whole Church. Each baptism is a historic moment in the life of Christ's Body.
Basil
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MamaZ
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The baptism of water does not save. It is having complete faith in Christ and What he has accomplished on the cross that saves. When one believes solely on Christ for salvation a beautiful new birth happens inside the believer. Christ comes to reside in this persons heart. This is the saving power of Jesus. The water baptism is from the OT also. It was a cleansing ritual. So when John was baptizing it was not uncommon. What was uncommon was that He was telling Jewish people they needed to repent and be baptized.
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I never said I didn't love anyone, just that someone was nuts.
Love doesn't mean I have to agree, and I wasn't unkind. It was a flippant remark and I'm sure it was taken that way as he had no commentary on what I said.
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did you ever consider this could have just been a reference to birth? we are all born of the water initially, then of the spirit.
not to mention, Christ keeping mikvah is not something that should be considered anything out of the ordinary as he told others to do it when he healed them as well.
I don't think God changed, I think people corrupt God's intention. It's nothing new. Why do you think there are denoms in Judaism? There were at Jesus' time. To think this is a "protestant" thing is to think in error.
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that wasn't my statement. I was quoting someone- sorry. problem happens when I don't do it "by the book"
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Baptism is an outward sign of faith. In the case of infant baptism, it is really the parents who are confessing Christ, dedicating the life and upbringing of their child to Him, and asking God to send His Spirit upon the child. (My brother's church actually calls this "dedication" rather than baptism.)
To delve deeper into the Word to illustrate the importance of baptism as an outward sign of faith:
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16). This verse makes it clear that belief in Christ is the determining factor. Baptism is important as a sign of submission to the will of God. But what is most important is the state of one's heart.
I'm a Catholic, but not a very good one (being brought up Lutheran)... I know that infant baptism and other sacraments appear as though they are man-made "works" that we say are necessary for salvation. But what I was taught in becoming Catholic was that the validity of any sacrament is fully dependent upon the state of the recipient's heart; if I really do not believe in Christ then it matters not what actions I perform, as I will not receive grace regardless of whether I go through the motions. Now this brings up a tough question, as when we baptize an infant, the point is for the infant to be the recipient of grace through the sacrament; but how can we know the state of a infant's heart? Does it all depend upon a person reaching the age of reason? And who therefore is responsible for the child's state of grace prior to that age?
So then, what about infants? Who knows the state of their heart but God? Does baptism actually save an infant? Is an infant capable of believing? What if children die before reaching the age of reason, whether baptized or not, if they cannot confess Christ while alive on this Earth, will they go to Heaven or Hell?
I look to the following verse as offering hope that any child who dies before the age of reason is welcomed into Heaven by our Lord with open arms:
Truly, I say to you, unless you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3-4)
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depends on how you view baptism, whether by water or spirit. Mark 16:16 proves nothing other than it is open to interpretation.
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MamaZ
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Gods grace is sufficient for those whom cannot confess Christ. It is not the bapitsm that saves.
It is not the bapitsm that saves.
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actually sprinkling in Jesus day was limited to buildings and things that could not be immersed.... so you're basically doing a rite set aside for a building - lol
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