Baptism

[Meshavrischika]

Those OT rites have nothing to do with NT water baptism. NT water baptism is for the remission of sins. Under the OT law they could not have their sins remitted completely, Hebrews chapter 9 and 10, particularly Heb 10:1-4. If those OT rites could cleanse away sin then there would have been no need for them to cease and no need for Christ to make Himself a sacrifice for sins.

how can you POSSIBLY think they're not related? lol. John was baptizing all over the place and it was NOT considered unusual. Baptism was NOT just from Christ, but happened BEFORE him. Baptizo is only a word meaning total immersion, it does not seperate the act from mikvah which is ALSO total immersion for purity.
It is TOTALLY RELATED to OT immersion. People have just made it something else. If water (baptism) can cleans away sin, then there's no need for Christ today as you have baptism (that is, IF it's required)

 

[MamaZ]

Again, the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation, so we cannot look to him to find out how to be saved.

Oh yes we most assuredly can. For He believed in Jesus.. Jesus saved Him.

 

[Meshavrischika]

yeah. who says that Christ didn't die 10 seconds before Him. Then he'd be in the NT salvation, wouldn't he?

 

[jmacvols]

he could have been one of the Aliens in the new Indiana Jones movie too and there's nothing in the bible to refute that either.

There's not a verse that say he was never baptized and likewise there is not a verse that says he was baptized, therefore for someone to say the thief had never been baptized is nothing but speculation/guessing and is not based upon any verse.

 

[jmacvols]

how can you POSSIBLY think they're not related? lol.

For the reasons I gave, from Heb 9 and 10 they had no water baptism for the remission of sins under the OT law. What verse says Moses could be water baptized for the remission of sins.

John was baptizing all over the place and it was NOT considered unusual. Baptism was NOT just from Christ, but happened BEFORE him. Baptizo is only a word meaning total immersion, it does not seperate the act from mikvah which is ALSO total immersion for purity.

John's baptism was baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. John's baptism lead the way to Christ's baptism of the great commission, preparing the people for the coming kingdom/church. Christ's baptism began at Acts 2:38 and John's ended there. Lk 7:30 says those that rejected John's baptism rejected the counsel of God. What can be said for those that reject Christ's baptism of Acts 2:38?

It is TOTALLY RELATED to OT immersion. People have just made it something else. If water (baptism) can cleans away sin, then there's no need for Christ today as you have baptism (that is, IF it's required)

Again, what verse says Moses or David could be water baptized for the remission of sins? Water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins did not begin until Acts 2:38, so this was impossible for Moses or David. If they could get their sins completely remitted, then what purpose did Christ serve in sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

Christ is the one who made baptism the place where sins are remitted so Christ made it a requirement,

 

[Meshavrischika]

again, never says he WAS the ailen, but never says he WASN'T

 

[jmacvols]

yeah. who says that Christ didn't die 10 seconds before Him. Then he'd be in the NT salvation, wouldn't he?

It does not matter who died first, for the promise Jesus made to the thief,[this day thou shalt be with me in paradise], this promise was made while both were still alive under the OT law.

 

[jmacvols]

again, never says he WAS the ailen, but never says he WASN'T

??????
I don't get it???

 

[Meshavrischika]

For the reasons I gave, from Heb 9 and 10 they had no water baptism for the remission of sins under the OT law. What verse says Moses could be water baptized for the remission of sins.

John's baptism was baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. John's baptism lead the way to Christ's baptism of the great commission, preparing the people for the coming kingdom/church. Christ's baptism began at Acts 2:38 and John's ended there. Lk 7:10 says those that rejected John's baptism rejected the counsel of God. What can be said for those that reject Christ's baptism of Acts 2:38?



Again, what verse says Moses or David could be water baptized for the remission of sins? Water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins did not begin until Acts 2:38, so this was impossible for Moses or David. If they could get their sins completely remitted, then what purpose did Christ serve in sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

Christ is the one who made baptism the place where sins are remitted so Christ made it a requirement,

Jews baptized proselytes.[1] The periodically repeated Jewish purification rite of mikvah is not normally spoken of as baptism, largely because of the Christian associations of the word "baptism".

The Greek-English Lexicon of Liddell and Scott gives the primary meaning of the word βαπτίζω (transliterated as "baptizô"), from which the English word baptism is derived, as dip, plunge, but indicates, giving Luke 11:38 as an example, that another meaning is perform ablutions.

The specific practices of Ablution in Christianity are generally concerned with either ritual purification, or symbolism of humility.

In Exodus 19:10 it is written: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and immerse/sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes"
​

As you can see G-d commanded the people to prepare themselves for the meeting by immersion/ritual purification of themselves and their garments. Yochanan haMatvil/John the Baptist is telling the people to prepare themselves to meet the Messiah and receive the new covenant. The act of immersion into repentance was necessary for ritual purity.

John the Baptist had been given the same assignment or anointing as Elijah, to prepare the people for the kingdom. As we have seen, those people just as we do today, need a time of reflection and repentance in order to partake of the things of our L-rd, the kingdom of G-d, just as the people prepared themselves each time to enter the Temple by going through a mikvah. John the Baptist is telling the people they should do the same. Just as the priests were immersed/installed into the priesthood, we today are kings and priest to our G-d and must be cognizant of our place in holiness. We must remember that the water does not defile and the water does not purify ... it is heart attitude. Just as the niddah and the proselyte had to have intention, so must we. We can never immerse ourselves enough to wash away our sins. Only the Blood of Yeshua can do that. We will never work our way to heaven by just doing the commandments, we arrive by faith.

 

[christianmomof3]

Jews baptized proselytes.[1] The periodically repeated Jewish purification rite of mikvah is not normally spoken of as baptism, largely because of the Christian associations of the word "baptism".

The Greek-English Lexicon of Liddell and Scott gives the primary meaning of the word βαπτίζω (transliterated as "baptizô"), from which the English word baptism is derived, as dip, plunge, but indicates, giving Luke 11:38 as an example, that another meaning is perform ablutions.

The specific practices of Ablution in Christianity are generally concerned with either ritual purification, or symbolism of humility.

In Exodus 19:10 it is written: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and immerse/sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes"
​

As you can see G-d commanded the people to prepare themselves for the meeting by immersion/ritual purification of themselves and their garments. Yochanan haMatvil/John the Baptist is telling the people to prepare themselves to meet the Messiah and receive the new covenant. The act of immersion into repentance was necessary for ritual purity.

John the Baptist had been given the same assignment or anointing as Elijah, to prepare the people for the kingdom. As we have seen, those people just as we do today, need a time of reflection and repentance in order to partake of the things of our L-rd, the kingdom of G-d, just as the people prepared themselves each time to enter the Temple by going through a mikvah. John the Baptist is telling the people they should do the same. Just as the priests were immersed/installed into the priesthood, we today are kings and priest to our G-d and must be cognizant of our place in holiness. We must remember that the water does not defile and the water does not purify ... it is heart attitude. Just as the niddah and the proselyte had to have intention, so must we. We can never immerse ourselves enough to wash away our sins. Only the Blood of Yeshua can do that. We will never work our way to heaven by just doing the commandments, we arrive by faith.

That is interesting. Some of that is quoted from wikipedia and I imagine you saw the chart on the baptism page which shows all of the different beliefs and practices related to baptism by the different groups.
I have read about hassidic Jews going to mikvahs in the past - I am not sure if they still do that or not or how common that practice is among other groups of Jews. I grew up in Reform Judaism and never heard of a mikvah. I would be interested in knowing how much that is done nowdays and where it is practiced.
I have also wondered about John baptising people and what they thought of that at that time because it does not seem to be the same as the reasons or practice of mikvah. Was he the first person to baptise people for the remission of sins? And yes, I realize that the only thing that washes away our sins is the blood of Jesus - not water, but at that time it had not yet been shed and people were still doing sacrifices in the temple. So, what did John's baptisms mean to those people at that time? Is there a source that can tell us that in an unbiased and purely historical way? If so, I would really like to know.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I just was making the connection that it is very likely that baptism/mikvah are one in the same (since there are umpteen million reasons/ways to practice mikvah). I see John preparing people for the kingdom with baptism the same way I see people being prepared for the Temple by the priests. Everything in Judaism that comes from the Torah is symbolic of my Lord, and this is just another Torah thing that screams of what he was doing himself (preparing us for the kingdom/temple)

 

[Meshavrischika]

I'm not sure you can find historic evidence of how Jews viewed John the Baptist without it being tainted by religious leanings in Christianity. I would suspect the closest people to be able to discern what he was donig would be the Messianic which seem (from looking for your request on the internet for about 15 minutes) to be the ones that share the same idea I have. But, I'm just trying to point out mikvah was about the same type of thing (repentance) as John's baptism was.

 

[jmacvols]

Jews baptized proselytes.[1] The periodically repeated Jewish purification rite of mikvah is not normally spoken of as baptism, largely because of the Christian associations of the word "baptism".

The Greek-English Lexicon of Liddell and Scott gives the primary meaning of the word βαπτίζω (transliterated as "baptizô"), from which the English word baptism is derived, as dip, plunge, but indicates, giving Luke 11:38 as an example, that another meaning is perform ablutions.

The specific practices of Ablution in Christianity are generally concerned with either ritual purification, or symbolism of humility.

In Exodus 19:10 it is written: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and immerse/sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes"
​

As you can see G-d commanded the people to prepare themselves for the meeting by immersion/ritual purification of themselves and their garments. Yochanan haMatvil/John the Baptist is telling the people to prepare themselves to meet the Messiah and receive the new covenant. The act of immersion into repentance was necessary for ritual purity.

John the Baptist had been given the same assignment or anointing as Elijah, to prepare the people for the kingdom. As we have seen, those people just as we do today, need a time of reflection and repentance in order to partake of the things of our L-rd, the kingdom of G-d, just as the people prepared themselves each time to enter the Temple by going through a mikvah. John the Baptist is telling the people they should do the same. Just as the priests were immersed/installed into the priesthood, we today are kings and priest to our G-d and must be cognizant of our place in holiness. We must remember that the water does not defile and the water does not purify ... it is heart attitude. Just as the niddah and the proselyte had to have intention, so must we. We can never immerse ourselves enough to wash away our sins. Only the Blood of Yeshua can do that. We will never work our way to heaven by just doing the commandments, we arrive by faith.

--Ex 19:10 is not water baptism in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins.

--I never said anything about water purifying, the water does nothing. It is the obedience in submitting to God's will in being baptized, that obedience is why God removes sin. Just as the water had nothing to do with Namaan being cleansed, it was his obedience to the prophet of God in going and dipping that cleansed him.

--in Rev 1:5 John says Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood. The question is, how does this happen. Not a single verse say "belief only" or saying a "sinner's prayer" causes Christ's blood to wash away our sins. Facts we know from the bible: Christ shed His blood that washes away sins in His death, Jn 19:34. Baptism is what puts one in Christ's death where that blood was shed, Rom 6:3,4. THerefore baptism into His death is how one contacts that blood that washes away sin, and nothing but baptism puts one in Christ's death where His blood is found.

--faith itself is a work, Mk 2:1-5.

 

[Meshavrischika]

the bible never says sinners prayer.
if you believe the water is blood then you're nuts.

 

[jmacvols]

the bible never says sinners prayer.
if you believe the water is blood then you're nuts.

Where did I say water is blood?

 

[Meshavrischika]

John says Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood. The question is, how does this happen. Not a single verse say "belief only" or saying a "sinner's prayer" causes Christ's blood to wash away our sins. Facts we know from the bible: Christ shed His blood that washes away sins in His death, Jn 19:34. Baptism is what puts one in Christ's death where that blood was shed

 

[Melethiel]

John says Christ washed us from our sins with His own blood. The question is, how does this happen. Not a single verse say "belief only" or saying a "sinner's prayer" causes Christ's blood to wash away our sins. Facts we know from the bible: Christ shed His blood that washes away sins in His death, Jn 19:34. Baptism is what puts one in Christ's death where that blood was shed

And a symbolic gesture can do this...how?

You're making the case for baptismal regeneration quite well in this post.

 

[Meshavrischika]

And a symbolic gesture can do this...how?

You're making the case for baptismal regeneration quite well in this post.

not me, was answering a question when someone asked me when they made the blood was water connection

 

[Melethiel]

not me, was answering a question when someone asked me when they made the blood was water connection

So you DO believe that the "sinners prayer" causes Christ's blood to wash away our sins?

 

[Meshavrischika]

no. I don't believe the sinners prayer is mentioned in the bible. Neither is the N. Creed. They are things picked and chosen to make a "easy pathway" to salvation by men. It's a bunch of crap IMO. -not very PC am I