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Baptism....

Proeliator

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1st Peter 3:18-21 said:
· For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 · in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison, 20 · who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Someone responded to a post I made on my blog about baptism coming after regeneration with these verses. He is a catholic and believes that baptism is necessary for salvation and uses these verses to "prove" that. How do I go about proving the symbolism that is used between the flood and baptism, so that he can realize that it is not meant a literal water baptism. The commentaries I have read through kinda assume that people will see it as symbolism, not literal.
 
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mannysee

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shadrach_ said:
Someone responded to a post I made on my blog about baptism coming after regeneration with these verses. He is a catholic and believes that baptism is necessary for salvation and uses these verses to "prove" that. How do I go about proving the symbolism that is used between the flood and baptism, so that he can realize that it is not meant a literal water baptism. The commentaries I have read through kinda assume that people will see it as symbolism, not literal.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 · in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison, 20 · who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
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Someone responded to a post I made on my blog about baptism coming after regeneration with these verses. He is a catholic and believes that baptism is necessary for salvation and uses these verses to "prove" that. How do I go about proving the symbolism that is used between the flood and baptism, so that he can realize that it is not meant a literal water baptism. The commentaries I have read through kinda assume that people will see it as symbolism, not literal.

Hi,

In this text alone, the answer is right in front of your (and the Catholic person's) eyes. It is NOT the underlined text, it IS "...an appeal to God....".

I'd like to stick to the text you mentioned if i could, but i can't help myself thinking of Colossians 2:12....
"having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him (the salvation part) through FAITH in the powerful working of God, who raised him (Jesus) from the dead."

And before i go! another thought....
the flood did not save them, it was being inside the ark.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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John Calvin in his Commentary of these verses in 1 Peter writes:
...As Noah, then, obtained life through death, when in the ark, he was enclosed not otherwise than as it were in the grave, and when the whole world perished, he was preserved together with his small family; so at this day, the death which is set forth in baptism, is to us an entrance into life, nor can salvation be hoped for, except we be separated from the world.

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. This was added, because it might be that the greatest part of men would profess the name of Christ; and so it is with us, almost all are introduced into the church by baptism. Thus, what he had said before would not be appropriate, that few at this day are saved by baptism, as God saved only eight by the ark. This objection Peter anticipates, when he testifies that he speaks not of the naked sign, but that the effect must also be connected with it, as though he had said, that what happened in the age of Noah would always be the case, that mankind would rush on to their own destruction, but that the Lord would in a wonderful way deliver His very small flock.

We now see what this connection means; for some one might object and say, "Our baptism is widely different from that of Noah, for it happens that most are at this day baptized." To this he replies, that the external symbol is not sufficient, except baptism be received really and effectually: and the reality of it will be found only in a few. It hence follows that we ought carefully to see how men commonly act when we rely on examples, and that we ought not to fear though we may be few in number.

But the fanatics, such as Schuencfeldius, absurdly pervert this testimony, while they seek to take away from sacraments all their power and effect. For Peter did not mean here to teach that Christ's institution is vain and inefficacious, but only to exclude hypocrites from the hope of salvation, who, as far as they can, deprave and corrupt baptism. Moreover, when we speak of sacraments, two things are to be considered, the sign and the thing itself. In baptism the sign is water, but the thing is the washing of the soul by the blood of Christ and the mortifying of the flesh. The institution of Christ includes these two things. Now that the sign appears often inefficacious and fruitless, this happens through the abuse of men, which does not take away the nature of the sacrament. Let us then learn not to tear away the thing signified from the sign. We must at the same time beware of another evil, such as prevails among the Papists; for as they distinguish not as they ought between the thing and the sign, they stop at the outward element, and on that fix their hope of salvation. Therefore the sight of the water takes away their thoughts from the blood of Christ and the power of the Spirit. They do not regard Christ as the only author of all the blessings therein offered to us; they transfer the glory of his death to the water, they tie the secret power of the Spirit to the visible sign.

What then ought we to do? Not to separate what has been joined together by the Lord. We ought to acknowledge in baptism a spiritual washing, we ought to embrace therein the testimony of the remission of sin and the pledge of our renovation, and yet so as to leave to Christ his own honor, and also to the Holy Spirit; so that no part of our salvation should be transferred to the sign. Doubtless when Peter, having mentioned baptism, immediately made this exception, that it is not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, he sufficiently shewed that baptism to some is only the outward act, and that the outward sign of itself avails nothing...

I hope Calvin's comments are found to be helpful.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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Paleoconservatarian

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Cajun Huguenot said:
John Calvin in his Commentary of these verses in 1 Peter writes:

I hope Calvin's comments are found to be helpful.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Actually, I am having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around this. I've read this before, and I've also read things by Calvin that seem to be saying something quite different concerning baptism. Understanding that Calvin's doctrine matured over time, I was still hoping that perhaps you could help me to understand it. In those quotes, it seems as though Calvin is affirming a form of baptismal regeneration. Please correct me if I am wrong. But elsewhere, I have read Calvin say that only the knowledge of the gifts are received in baptism, not that it is the instrument of such. (I believe this was in his 1537 Instruction in Faith, and elsewhere). Perhaps I am just not understanding Calvin here... I find his doctrine of the sacraments much easier to swallow where the Eucharist is concerned. But in baptism, I get confused.
 
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arunma

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shadrach_ said:
Someone responded to a post I made on my blog about baptism coming after regeneration with these verses. He is a catholic and believes that baptism is necessary for salvation and uses these verses to "prove" that. How do I go about proving the symbolism that is used between the flood and baptism, so that he can realize that it is not meant a literal water baptism. The commentaries I have read through kinda assume that people will see it as symbolism, not literal.

I know that this is one of the more popular examples, but perhaps you could also remind your friend of the sinner on the cross. In St. Matthew 27:44, both of the two other crucifixion victims are recorded as reviling Jesus. But in St. Luke 20:40-42, one of the them is recorded as repenting and having faith in Christ for his salvation. For the few hours that this thief was on the cross, he certainly became regenerated. But I doubt that anyone baptized him.
 
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lmnop9876

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I know that this is one of the more popular examples, but perhaps you could also remind your friend of the sinner on the cross. In St. Matthew 27:44, both of the two other crucifixion victims are recorded as reviling Jesus. But in St. Luke 20:40-42, one of the them is recorded as repenting and having faith in Christ for his salvation. For the few hours that this thief was on the cross, he certainly became regenerated. But I doubt that anyone baptized him.
this verse is often quoted to say that baptism is not ordinarily necessary for salvation. however, 1. Christ had not yet instituted the sacrament of baptism. this man had probably already received the old covenant type of baptism, namely circumcision. 2. Had the sacrament of baptism already been administered, the thief on the cross would doubtless have been eager to receive it (because, having turned to serve Christ, he would want to obey all His commands), although this may not have been possible, the fact remains that the desire is still there.
 
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arunma

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pjw said:
this verse is often quoted to say that baptism is not ordinarily necessary for salvation. however, 1. Christ had not yet instituted the sacrament of baptism. this man had probably already received the old covenant type of baptism, namely circumcision. 2. Had the sacrament of baptism already been administered, the thief on the cross would doubtless have been eager to receive it (because, having turned to serve Christ, he would want to obey all His commands), although this may not have been possible, the fact remains that the desire is still there.

It's true that Christ had not yet instituted the Great Commission (which includes baptism). But the means of salvation has never changed. People were saved by faith in Christ before he was even born; remember that Christ does not simply appear for the first time when we turn to the Gospel of Matthew. If we were to go by the dispensationalist view that people are saved based on their obedience to whatever covenant God institutes at the time, then it would be difficult to explain why Jesus said that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus the day he repented of his tax collection abuses. Ultimately, if we say that the sinner on the cross did not need to be baptized because baptism had not yet been ordained, then we must accept that God has changed the means by which he saves people.

As for the Roman Catholic doctrine of "baptism by desire," I can't seem to find any Biblical support for it. I don't mean to attack your explanation by labeling it as Catholic, but I do not personally believe that it is taught in the Scriptures.
 
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lmnop9876

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It's true that Christ had not yet instituted the Great Commission (which includes baptism). But the means of salvation has never changed. People were saved by faith in Christ before he was even born; remember that Christ does not simply appear for the first time when we turn to the Gospel of Matthew. If we were to go by the dispensationalist view that people are saved based on their obedience to whatever covenant God institutes at the time, then it would be difficult to explain why Jesus said that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus the day he repented of his tax collection abuses. Ultimately, if we say that the sinner on the cross did not need to be baptized because baptism had not yet been ordained, then we must accept that God has changed the means by which he saves people.

As for the Roman Catholic doctrine of "baptism by desire," I can't seem to find any Biblical support for it. I don't mean to attack your explanation by labeling it as Catholic, but I do not personally believe that it is taught in the Scriptures.
well, all Christians should ordinarily partake of the sacraments of baptism (once) and the Lord's Supper (regularly). if we desire to obey Christ, then we desire to be baptized, because He commanded us to be baptized. Baptism does not save people now any more than circumcision saved them in the Old Testament. many Jews were circumcised but did not believe, just as many people are baptized and do not believe. however, Christ did not command people to be baptized until after His Resurrection. before this, male believers were commanded to be circumcised, which sacrament, presumably, the thief on the cross had received.
consider this hypothetical situation. three years after the Resurrection of Christ, three people are walking their crosses to the top of the nearby hill. one is a Christian, and the other two are thiefs and murderers. the criminals are shouting abuse at the Christian, who is singing hymns of praise to Christ as they climb the hill. thief 1 says to the Christian, "What is it that makes you so happy in the face of death?" the Christian explains the Gospel to him, and the thief believes this Gospel as he approaches his death. as they reach the top of the hill, they pass the stream nearby, where several people are singing hymns and being baptized. thief 1 asks the Christian what is going on, he explains that these people are being baptized for the remission of sins, as commanded by Christ. thief 1 says he would greatly like to receive this baptism before he dies, but he doesn't think it's possible because of his situation. Christian replies that because he desired to obey Christ's command, but the means were not available, Christ will graciously regard him as though he had obeyed the command.
 
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