Baptism with fire

[Bodidily]

Erm... im not sure which category this fitted into so this will have to do!!

I'm a DJ, and I thought it would be cool to play some tunes with Christian content (samples of sermons, bible verses and so on). So I bought a few records and had a listen.

The record in question is "CJ Bolland - The Prophet". The vocal sample goes something along the lines of....

"In the Bible it says, "God is coming!", but i tell you its too late, He's already here! I'm here, and I'm going to baptise you all, with fire!"

Sounds very cool in the record, and I vaguley remembered somewhere in the Bible that mentioned this, but I wondered about the validity of the statement! So i did a little research. I found an interview with the writer, CJ Bolland. Right at the top, it says his name is "Christian Jay Bolland" (good start!) and that he doesnt drink alcohol or do drugs (a very strange thing within the music industry!). Then it comes to talking about this tune and the sample it uses. Here is a direct quote.

"He gives the example of 'The Prophet', a fast and furious techno track inspired by the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ'. CJ is a big fan of the movie, in particular the performance of Willem Dafoe as Jesus - one of whose speeches is sampled on the track. "When I listened to the build-up on his voice, it was like one of those techno tracks with a big breakdown", says CJ. "His voice was like one of those snare rolls that just get bigger and bigger, so we started with that as a crescendo and just built track around it basically.""

Now I started to get a little worried. I have never seen this film, but have heard a bit about it, how it is blasphemous and the director is anti-Christian and so on.

So, now I'm thinking it is probably a good idea never to play this record!!

What do you guys think about this? Is this sample on the track Biblical? I just want more info and opinions basially! on the whole topic!! lol

I decided it was wise not to play the record at all for now (which is a shame, as from a DJ's point of view it is a great track!)

Thanks to everyone!

 

[Disciple2003]

Hey Bodidily - Let me first say that I think you are using great wisdom in asking other Christians (I am assuming you are a Christian) their opinion on this before getting too far into it.  I have absolutely no idea who CJ Bolland is and have never heard any of his music.  But in response to your question of 'is this biblical' the answer is absolutely NO!!  In reference to the movie, The Last Temptation of Christ, I actually saw that before I became a Christian.  But I can tell you it was in no way scriptural nor did it honor Christ in any way.

As far as his reference to the baptism in fire, there is only one place in the New Testament where that particular phrase is used: Matthew 3:11.  Here, John the Baptist is baptising his followers when many of the Saudducees and Pharisees showed up to be baptised.  He chastises them calling them a brood of vipers and warns them that they cannot hide behind the fact that they are descendants of Abraham.  He tells them that the axe is already laid at the root of the trees and every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.  In verse 11 he says, "As for me, I baptise you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fir to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

By the context of all that John is saying it is obvious that he is making a contrast between these two baptisms.  The baptism in the Holy Spirit is one that brings life while the baptism in fire is one of judgement and eternal death (separation from God).  His statement, 'it's too late, He's already here' is completely false and could classify this man as a false prophet because he can lead some astray.  It's extremely dangerous.  The statement, 'I'm going to baptize you all, with fire' is totally against scripture and the will of God.  The baptism in fire is reserved only for those who do not bear good fruit (which would be all who are not in Christ), certainly not for all people.

I think your hesitation to play this man's music is wise and you should continue on that path.  I don't know what other kind of music you play as a DJ, but maybe you should consider reviewing some of your other stuff as well. Just a thought.  Hope this helped a little bit.  God bless.

 

 

[Andrew]

In verse 11 he says, "As for me, I baptise you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fir to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

By the context of all that John is saying it is obvious that he is making a contrast between these two baptisms.Ê The baptism in the Holy Spirit is one that brings life while the baptism in fire is one of judgement and eternal death (separation from God).

I disagree with the fire part. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit with fire was fulfilled in Acts 2:

2:1 ¦ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Christians who receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit today with tongues sometimes do feel warmth or fire going through their body, as if God was burning up everything unclean in them.

 

[Disciple2003]

Andrew - I hope this doesn't come off offensive, but those in charismatic circles tend to make verses center around tongues; verses that actually have nothing at all to do with tongues.  We could have a huge discussion on this, but this is probably not the thread to do that.  If you read the next verse in John the Baptist's statement, it should be clear.  Verse 12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."  This clearly represents judgement; it certainly has nothing to do with tongues.  The baptism with fire is something we do not want, nor should we be asking for it as many charismatics do.  I really don't think they know what they are asking for.  God bless.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Baptism with fire ( and this is coming from a Southern Baptist, lol) is baptism of the Holy Spirit. The scripture you guiys referred to in John IS referring to the judgement, but the vereses in Acts is referring to being baptized with the Holy Spirit, which I might add does not necessarily have anything to do with tongues, but the Spirit does bare witness by spiritual gifts, which are MANY more than speaking in tongues.

One thing about tongues. A lot of the charasmatic churches I have attended (and that is quite a few) the people that speak in tongues start yelling out jibberish. That's all well and good, and I do not say whether it is from God or not (that is between them and God), but the purpose of tongues in Biblical times was to share the gospel truth with people who did not speak the same language.

Acts 2


The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[1] as the Spirit enabled them.
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

According to this scripture, I do not believe people still speak in tongues through God's power. There is no need for it. We no longer have separation bewteen languages. It was used then to witness.

Anyway if we want to talk about this let's start another thread, sawry I talk so much!

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[Disciple2003]

Baptism with fire ( and this is coming from a Southern Baptist, lol) is baptism of the Holy Spirit. The scripture you guiys referred to in John IS referring to the judgement, but the vereses in Acts is referring to being baptized with the Holy Spirit, which I might add does not necessarily have anything to do with tongues, but the Spirit does bare witness by spiritual gifts, which are MANY more than speaking in tongues.

FOMWatts - I am very confused by this statement.&nbsp; You first say that the baptism with fire is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then you say that it is referring to judgement.&nbsp; How can it be both?&nbsp; Please look closely at what John said.&nbsp; At the end of verse 11 he said, "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."&nbsp; The key word is AND indicating two separate baptisms.&nbsp; He does not say that HE will baptize you&nbsp;in Holy Spirit&nbsp;WITH fire.&nbsp; This is a very important disdinction.

&nbsp;

 

[Ratioann]

1 Corinthians 3 12-14
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

Another bit on fire. It seems that the good will pass through a fire also.

 

[Andrew]

Andrew - I hope this doesn't come off offensive, but those in charismatic circles tend to make verses center around tongues; verses that actually have nothing at all to do with tongues.Ê We could have a huge discussion on this, but this is probably not the thread to do that.Ê If you read the next verse in John the Baptist's statement, it should be clear.Ê Verse 12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."Ê This clearly represents judgement; it certainly has nothing to do with tongues.Ê The baptism with fire is something we do not want, nor should we be asking for it as many charismatics do.Ê I really don't think they know what they are asking for.Ê God bless.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

no offence but your statement is already illogical. Why wld God want to baptise a person with the Holy Spirit and then with the fire of judgement?? ie blesses and a curse in the same act.

Read the verse carefully. There is only one subject -- "you". And it says "AND WITH FIRE". Also, the Bible never refers to hell fire judgement being a "baptizo".

 

[FOMWatts<><]

28th February 2003 at 11:43 PM Disciple2003 said this in Post #6 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682983#post682983)

FOMWatts - I am very confused by this statement.&nbsp; You first say that the baptism with fire is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then you say that it is referring to judgement.&nbsp; How can it be both?&nbsp; Please look closely at what John said.&nbsp; At the end of verse 11 he said, "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."&nbsp; The key word is AND indicating two separate baptisms.&nbsp; He does not say that HE will baptize you&nbsp;in Holy Spirit&nbsp;WITH fire.&nbsp; This is a very important disdinction.

&nbsp;

IT is okay that you are confused by that statment, because I read the wrong verse when I replied, hehehe. I read John 3:11 and was wondering how it related to the topic at hand, lol. So just disregard that part of my previous post.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[Bodidily]

Thankyou very much for all your replies guys (and girl!) they were very helpful, especially Disciple2003's - i totally agree with your comments, and i've never really noticed how easy it is to give out the wrong message through the music i am playing. I will certainly be thinking a lot more about the songs i play from now on! And yes I am a Christian (maybe there should be a little picture to display this near location, age etc!!)

cheers guys!

/me takes "The Prophet" back to the store for a refund!

 

[JesusServant]

Fire is not always bad as many jump to conclusions because of the Lake of Fire and/or hell. Jesus, the Messiah, was said to consume His enemies with fire from His mouth, but this was not literal as we well know. Also, Isaiah spoke of the fire that shot up in his bones when he "got on fire" for God. I, too, have experienced this and it's a term that is confused and misused sometimes. For instance, "God will light a fire in you". This is not a bad thing. I do agree about the John example and how he was speaking of a negative baptism of fire.

Of course, the "God is already here and He's going to baptize you all with fire" is very wrong and bad to be teaching/telling people. Satan would love for us all to think God is out to get us and burn us all, but it is satan who would love to take us down with him.

 

[JesusServant]

btw, to the threadstarter. Why do you have a countdown to Armageddon in your sig and where would you get a specific date. I would have thought more people knew better than to try and guess a date by now. Just curious. Welcome to Christian Forums, BTW!

 

[Disciple2003]

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:no offence but your statement is already illogical. Why wld God want to baptise a person with the Holy Spirit and then with the fire of judgement?? ie blesses and a curse in the same act.
Read the verse carefully. There is only one subject -- "you". And it says "AND WITH FIRE". Also, the Bible never refers to hell fire judgement being a "baptizo".

Again you stop short of seeing the entire message.&nbsp; Look at the next verse in what you quoted (which I already pointed out from Matthew).&nbsp; Verse 17 reads, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into&nbsp;His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."&nbsp; He will gather the wheat (His people) into His barn and will separate out the chaff (the wicked) who will be burnt up in unquenchable fire.&nbsp; How can this possibly be read as something good from the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; The fire hear is absolutely reserved for the wicked not for the righteous.

&nbsp;As far as the bible never referring to hell fire judgement as being a "baptizo", yes it does.&nbsp; Right here!&nbsp; We must also consider who John was speaking to.&nbsp; Matthew's account shows us that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were coming to John for baptism.&nbsp; He said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come."&nbsp; The entire context was dealing with wrath and judgement.&nbsp; Is it likely that when John said that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit that he was speaking of these men?&nbsp; That is highly doubtful.&nbsp; It is also doubtful that John meant that those who were truly his disciples and were ready to follow Jesus were to be baptized in fire.&nbsp; So how do we reconcile this?&nbsp; Simple.&nbsp; This statement about the two baptisms was meant for&nbsp;two types of people that were present.&nbsp; He was saying that some of those present would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (we know that some of Jesus' apostles were there at the time) and others would be baptized with fire (the Pharisees and Sadducees who were to reject the Messiah).

&nbsp;

 

[Andrew]

sorry Disciple2003,

but simple English grammar tells us otherwise

btw: It does not make sense to Baptise a Christian with "unquenchable fire"s of hell after baptising him with the Holy Spirit.

also, as i said, the Bible speaks of being cast into the lake of fire but not being Baptised in the lake of fire.

 

[Bodidily]

I agree that you can be "on fire for God" and that the Holy Spirit manifest itself as fire in Acts (as has already been mentioned). However, I believe the verse in question is talking about a fire of judgement. These are two seperate contexts and are not to be confused!

btw: It does not make sense to Baptise a Christian with "unquenchable fire"s of hell after baptising him with the Holy Spirit.

erm, no. would you like to explain?

btw, to the threadstarter. Why do you have a countdown to Armageddon in your sig and where would you get a specific date. I would have thought more people knew better than to try and guess a date by now. Just curious.

The countdown is not to Armaggedon like, the end of the world! Its a countdown till i get the results from my exams!!! ie - potentially the end of the world if i fail.. its a joke... obviously wasted humour! lol

 

[JesusServant]

lol Bodidily!

 

[Andrew]

However, I believe the verse in question is talking about a fire of judgement. These are two seperate contexts and are not to be confused!

it is not. and as i said, simple English grammar tells us its one subject "you".

erm, no. would you like to explain?

i said earlier that to interpret "with fire" in the verse as the "hell fires of judgement" is to say that Jesus baptises the believer first with the Holy Spirit and then with hell fires of judgement -- which is simply ridiculous!

again, one is cast into the lake of fire, not baptised there.

 

[Disciple2003]

i said earlier that to interpret "with fire" in the verse as the "hell fires of judgement" is to say that Jesus baptises the believer first with the Holy Spirit and then with hell fires of judgement -- which is simply ridiculous!

Andrew, you seem to refuse to support your statements with scripture.&nbsp; Noone on this&nbsp;thread EVER suggested that Jesus baptizes a believer with the Holy Spirit then with fire.&nbsp; I don't understand where you are getting that from.&nbsp; John the Baptist was not speaking only to his followers when he said this.&nbsp; There were also Pharisees and Sadducees who were rejecting the message that John was bringing.&nbsp; Actually, John began this topic speaking directly to them.&nbsp; With that in mind and based on your theology, then John must have been telling the Pharisees and Sadducees that Jesus was going to baptize them in the Holy Spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp;That certainly would cause things to get slightly mixed up if that were possible.&nbsp; You are taking the entire message of John the Baptist out of context.&nbsp; Read the WHOLE passage, not just what you want it to say.

&nbsp;

 

[Andrew]

Andrew, you seem to refuse to support your statements with scripture.

I did in my earlier post. anyway here they are again:

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

fulfilled:

Acts 2:
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There's your baptism with the Holy Spirit AND WITH fire.

And I'll say it one last time: there is only one subject "you" in the 2 verses. So it cannot mean that Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit followed by fires of judgement. Simply ludicrous.

 

[Bodidily]

You really should read the next few verses though, where John the Baptist goes on to say that the chaff shall be cleared and burned with unquenchable fire.

"11 'I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.' "

Now then, the Bible says that we are all priests in Christ (cant find reference, can anyone help here?). Therefore, John The Baptist has the authority, in the name of Jesus, to baptise people and cleanse them from their sins (repentance). However, John does not have the authority to judge. So, Jesus comes to baptise people in the Holy Spirit (to determine their love for Him and if they are to go to Heaven, or whether they should go to Hell), and then with fire. "..gathering His wheat (Christians) into the barn" (heaven), and "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire".


Hope that makes a little more sense now.