Baptism - When is it necessary?

[Rochir]

Just when is baptism necessary? Right after birth? A certain time after? Never?

 

[MariaRegina]

Rochir,

Thanks for posting this question.

First, is Baptism necessary for salvation?

We have the story of the Good Thief which seems to indicate that Baptism was not necessary for his salvation.

Yet, Baptism is dying with Christ and rising with Him in His Holy Resurrection.

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all, but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

So, in dying with Christ on the Holy Cross, the Good Thief did participate in the Holy Death and Resurrection of Christ.
By dying with Christ, the Good Thief did receive Holy Baptism by desire.


Have to go now, but will be back.

EDIT: I have added the quote above to reference our participation in the Crucifixion and Death of Christ through Holy Baptism, which is a Holy Mystery and Sacrament in our Church given to us through Christ.

Therefore you can see that Baptism is essential in our battle against sin so that we may present ourselves in spotless garments before the judgment throne of Christ our God.

 

[Rochir]

BUT ... if I believe in Christ, yet never have been baptised... would God, when I die, love me less? I know it not to be so!

 

[MariaRegina]

If you love God, and have read the New Testament and the Seven Ecumenical Councils, two of which helped to formulate the Nicene Creed, then you would know that Baptism is mandated by Christ and His Holy Church.

If you have a concordance with your Holy Bible, please do search Baptism.

Then check the words of the original Nicene Creed, a translation in English is provided below:

The Nicene Creed of the Orthodox Church
with Scriptural References

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)

One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

Father (Matthew 6: 9)

Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)

Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)

and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)

Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)

begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)

begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)

Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)

true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)

of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)

through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)

Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)

came down from the heavens (John 6: 33,35)

and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)

and became man. (John 1: 14)

Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)

under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)

He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)

and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)

Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)

And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)

He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)

And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)

to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)

His kingdom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)

Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)

the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)

Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)

Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)

Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)

holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)

catholic (Mark 16: 15)

and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)

I look for the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)

And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

 

[MariaRegina]

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only one Faith, one Baptism, and one Lord.
So why do we have so many different Christian Creeds?
Why are we so fragmented when there is supposed to be only One Faith and One Lord.

There is only one Baptism in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

So, if Baptism remits sins and doesn't just cover them up, but actually cleanses your soul and makes it as white as snow, then would it not be a good idea to be baptized?

Another Scripture quote comes from Colossians:

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by he circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses ...

Here we see that Baptism is the circumcision made without hands that frees us from our transgressions (remits our sins), and makes us alive in Christ.

 

[MariaRegina]

So, baptism has everything to do with repentance.

A precondition for Baptism is metanoia - a change of heart and a desire to put aside our sinful ways. When our Orthodox Priests detect that we have reached that stage of metanoia, then he knows that we are ready for the Holy Waters of Baptism.

We show our love of Christ through a willingness to die to sin and accept baptism.

With that awareness, adult candidates for baptism strive to put on Christ and to keep their baptismal garments unsoiled.

Those who fall into sin after baptism have no need to despair because we have the Holy Sacrament of Confession which remits sins committed after Baptism.

 

[katherine2001]

Christ Himself was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan, even though He didn't need to be. He did it as an example to us. He also made it part of the Great Commission. It is obvious that baptism was/is important to Christ. If we love someone, don't we want to please them? Doesn't what is important to those we love become important to us? Certainly, He makes exceptions, as He did with the Thief (St. Dismas). After all, the centurions weren't going to let St. Dismas off the cross in order to get baptized.

 

[Dorothea]

What they said. Baptism is for us. The thief on the cross was an extraordinary event. My priest said when somebody brings that up, he says, "well, ok, when you are dying on a cross, we'll consider that."

 

[E.C.]

Christ Himself was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan, even though He didn't need to be. He did it as an example to us. He also made it part of the Great Commission. It is obvious that baptism was/is important to Christ. If we love someone, don't we want to please them? Doesn't what is important to those we love become important to us? Certainly, He makes exceptions, as He did with the Thief (St. Dismas). After all, the centurions weren't going to let St. Dismas off the cross in order to get baptized.

I like to think that Christ knew all the abridgments that later Christians would make to everything and decided that baptism was important enough for Him to partake just to make sure that people would get some water on their heads when they became Christians.


Seriously, when one uses the "Christ was baptized, shouldn't we?" clause in almost any debate on the sacraments you can tell who really reads the posts and who is just there for an ego trip by how they respond to it.

What they said. Baptism is for us. The thief on the cross was an extraordinary event. My priest said when somebody brings that up, he says, "well, ok, when you are dying on a cross, we'll consider that."

 

[Rochir]

If you love God, and have read the New Testament and the Seven Ecumenical Councils, two of which helped to formulate the Nicene Creed, then you would know that Baptism is mandated by Christ and His Holy Church.

If you have a concordance with your Holy Bible, please do search Baptism.

Human formalisms, dont you think? You really belive God, the Almighty, hangs up on an honest, decent human being just s/he has not been baptised according to some man-made rules?

I do not think so!

 

[Machachachi]

Human formalisms, dont you think? You really belive God, the Almighty, hangs up on an honest, decent human being just s/he has not been baptised according to some man-made rules?

I do not think so!

I think you are in the wrong forum to take the view that Ecumenical councils are simply human formalism.

Furthermore, without Baptism, without Communion, without the Resurrection, we can hardly even call what we believe Christianity. Christ was baptized, the paving the way for his Kingdom by John the Baptist was through baptism. All new believers in the Church were baptized. What is good for the goose, might just be good for the gander. Far be it from me to ignore not only the urging of Scripture, but also thousands of years of The Church to simply wave baptism away.

If you are able to be baptized, you should be. Why even argue it? What is your motive here?

 

[Thekla]

Human formalisms, dont you think? You really belive God, the Almighty, hangs up on an honest, decent human being just s/he has not been baptised according to some man-made rules?

I do not think so!

were it a mere human formalism, why would Christ command it ?

IMO, we either trust what He says, or we don't.

 

[Protoevangel]

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
- Acts 22:16
​

Now, why are you waiting?

Unless you claim that the Holy Scriptures are mere "human formalisms".

 

[E.C.]

My question: how can baptism be a mere "human formalism" when Christ Himself was baptized?

 

[Epiphanius]

This is a rigorously logical argument I have formulated about baptism fleshed out in a series of statements.

1. To be a Christian you must love Christ.
2. People who do not love Christ, hate him and are not under his grace.
3. Christ states "If you love me, obey my commands".
4. If you willfully defy the commands of Christ, you do not love him.
5. Christ commands baptism.

Conclusion: If you as a person willfully refuse baptism at a time when it is possible for you to be baptized. You are willfully refusing a command of God and thus you do not love Him. If you do not love Him, you are not a Christian.

 

[Rochir]

BUT ... if I believe in Christ, yet never have been baptised... would God, when I die, love me less? I know it not to be so!

Yet, the question remains - would God, the Father of all, love me less?

 

[Protoevangel]

Yet, the question remains - would God, the Father of all, love me less?

You see, this question really misunderstands the Orthodox understanding of God. God Loves the basest sinner just as He Loves the greatest Saint. God's Love does not stand in opposition to God's Judgment or (as some prefer to understand it) our experience of that Love.

The real question is, do you love Him as you claim if you reject His Love by rejecting His Baptism? If you call His Command... a mere "human formalism"? If you teach others to do the same? I think the answer to that is pretty clear.

 

[Epiphanius]

Yet, the question remains - would God, the Father of all, love me less?

Nope, God will love you just as much as he always has, that still doesn't make you a Christian. If you are a Christian, you would be more than willing to become baptized according to Christ's command. If you refuse His baptism, you refuse Him.

 

[buzuxi02]

Yet, the question remains - would God, the Father of all, love me less?

Baptism has nothing to do with God loving the specific human being more or less. There are a number of reasons given in scripture and Holy Tradition for the benefits of baptism, the aspect of God loving us more or less is not one of them.

First off baptism is the rite which allows entrance into the Church and the partaking of the rest of the Mysteries given to Her. These Mysteries help us in our path towards theosis and are vehicles of grace not legalisms and thus noy man-made. The whole purpose of being given these wonderful sacraments is to make it easier not harder to be deified.

Through baptism we wash away any sins of the flesh and start anew, we enter into the bridalchamber of the Lord, we take our place alongside the disciples at the Last Supper soon to be the Marriage banquet. No ones saying anyone will be damned or anything like that. But as Christ taught- that in His Father's House there are many mansions. All things are taken into consideration when Christ prepares that place for His people.

 

[MariaRegina]

If we really love someone, be it God or a significant other, then we will want to give 100 percent of our love and do whatever pleases them so long as it does not offend them.

The problem today is that many people are minimalist, and want to do the least amount possible. They do not want to give 100 percent of their love to their beloved.

However, man is called to worship God and to offer Our Lord our whole mind, body, and spirit. This love and devotion calls for a maximum effort, not a minimal approach.

Therefore, Christians should be maximalists, not minimalists. If God has said to go and to baptize all men, then we should comply in faith, love, and obedience.