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... if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?
Lee52 said:
New Christians will not benefit from your many words.
Lee52 said:
You eisegete Scripture and use LOTS of words, saying the same thing over and over again in rephrased sentences and multiple Scriptural references that seem to indicate what you say as truth.
Lee52 said:
Yet, there are no Christian denominations that I am aware of that teach your version of salvation in Christ and initial and ultimate salvation.
Lee52 said:
Your conversation is much better suited among those of us that have been saved by grace for several years and are graduates of evangelical, fundamental, Christian colleges and universities.
Lee52 said:
You came into this forum thread for new Christians with meat and potatoes discussions instead of milk and honey.
Lee52 said:
If I were so inclined, in a different forum on theological discussions, I would engage you on what you are saying here, one at a time, individually, to keep the discussion simple. As I said above, you are too verbose for a "new Christian" thread and much to complex in what and how you present it. New Christians are not equiped to understand and you know it.
If God saved you and you died prior to getting water baptized, YES, you are still saved. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, APART from works of any kind! (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 10:9-10; John 5:24).
If you live on however, be sure to be baptized.
Yours and His,
David
Dear brother David, the other brother is right that baptism is a work of obedience, NECESSARY for a believer to obtain entrance into God's Kingdom which is where all saved saints will go. Mark what the Lord Himself said:
I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)
It is very dangerous to teach others to disobey this command of Jesus Christ and cause a weak brother to stumble and even lose his salvation because we taught a wrong doctrine that is not of God. What punishment will we face for teaching error and causing one saved by Christ to ultimately perish because of false doctrines!
Note that more than just "one or two" scriptures have been referenced which show baptism to be a requirement for ultimate salvation, and that it hasn't been proven that any scripture has been referenced contrary to its context.
In order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
Thats my understanding of baptism too - and pretty much what my pastor said when I asked about it. I believe that if you died tomorrow you would be going to heaven. I am a new christian too and not baptised yet, and I know that god is with me, and working on me, and I am sure that if i dropped dead before I was baptised i would be going to heaven.God says that to be saved, one must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is who He says He is.
Baptism is an act of obedience that we are to do after we are saved. we really shouldn't waste time doing this, but it's not going to get us sent to hell if we don't rush to the nearest baptismal. water baptism is an outward profession of the inward change that occurred when Christ washed away our sins (when we got saved.)
there is a different baptism though, that is required for salvation. this is the baptism of the Spirit. and no, i don't mean speaking in tongues. Jesus and the apostles spoke of the baptism of the spirit throughout the new testament. to my understanding, baptism of the spirit coincides with the moment we are saved.
if water baptism were required, then that would mean there really wasn't sufficient grace. it would also mean that Jesus lied when he told the thief on the cross that he would be with him that day in heaven. it would also mean that countless people who accepted Christ at a time in their lives when they were unable to go get baptized really were going to hell despite having given their life to Jesus.
you're going to here conflicting opinions on this subject, and in fact you already have. don't listen to us. listen to God. pray. ask Him to assure you of your salvation.
and when you get a chance, be obedient and get baptized in water, and make that public profession of your faith.
Harry3142 said:
Why are you referencing Mark 16:16?
Harry3142 said:
We all known that the Gospel of St. Mark ends at 16:8, with every verse from 16:9 onwards being added to the text years, or even centuries, later in order to 'fill it out'.
What punishment will we face for teaching error and causing one saved by Christ to ultimately perish because of false doctrines!
It is very dangerous to teach others to disobey this command of Jesus Christ ...
It is so terrible that Christians who claim to follow the bible would read the bible, read Mark 16 and many other passages that endorse water baptism and shows its necessity, and tell others not to bother with it. So sad!
Hi Terene, I find it fascinating to read your words, especially considering your apparent high regard for the doctrine of Eternal Security. The truth is, no doctrine, true or false, is going to cause someone to be snatched out of the hand of their Savior (John 10:28), or they were NEVER one of His sheep to begin with (John 10:26-28).
That said, I do agree with you that teaching God's Word is something that none of us should take lightly and I appreciate the reminder to be careful ..
Finally (and in light of that last thought), in which part of my post are you saying that I'm teaching readers to disobey Christ's commands concerning baptism? WDGL in the OP told us he's a new Christian who has not yet been baptized. He was worried that if he died tomorrow before being able to be baptized, that he might lose his salvation. Where are you saying that I've told him not to be baptized? Do I not, in fact, tell him to do just the opposite?
There is certainly much more to talk about (how to properly exegete John 3:5 might be good place to start), but this is not a debate board. You seem to favor a doctrine of some sort of 'double salvation', not unlike Bible2 and his "initial" and "ultimate" versions of salvation, so why not jump over into Soteriology and join the discussion(s) there?
Yours and His,
David
p.s. - PROPHECYKID, I don't know any who would tell a Christian "not to bother" getting baptized (unless they'd already been baptized, of course). Certainly no one in this thread has said or even insinuated anything of the sort!
DaLeKo said:
The truth is, no doctrine, true or false, is going to cause someone to be snatched out of the hand of their Savior (John 10:28), or they were NEVER one of His sheep to begin with (John 10:26-28).
Lee52 said:
I will leave this thread to new Christians with this thought: What did Jesus say to the woman "caught in the very act" of adultery?
Did Jesus tell her to go get baptized, or did he just tell her to go and sin no more?
In other situations where Jesus forgave people's sins, did He just forgive them of their sins, or did he tell them to go and be baptized before their sins were forgiven?
Lee52 said:
Note: David and I have never once said to NOT get baptized by immersion. We have all said that it is necessary as an outward sign of an inward change. AND, it is not necessary for salvation to "stick" prior to getting dunked. For those mandating it as a requirement of salvation, I would ask: Do you believe that the wine and bread turn into Jesus' body and blood?
Lee52 said:
Do you use wine or grape juice?
Lee52 said:
Do you use leavened or unleavened bread?
Lee52 said:
Are you willing to submit to the same measure of judging from others as you use to judge others?
Lee52 said:
Be blessed, and be honest,
Lee52
Lee52 said:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (for John had not yet been put in prison).
Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him." John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.' The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease."
He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:16-36 ESV
Lee52 said:
BTW, in the words of Bible2; "Note that it has never been proven" that the Bible is true.
Lee52 said:
It is a matter of faith. Faith in God, and faith in Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf. There is one salvation, and that in Christ alone.
Lee52 said:
NOTE that if predesitination of ONLY the elect were true, Jesus had no need to suffer a brutal, agonizing death on the cross in payment for the sins of those elect which were predestined from the dawn of time to be saved. The sacrifice becomes moot because they were predestined before time began to spend eternity with God.
Lee52 said:
What a brutal and unjust god you serve bible2.
Lee52 said:
BTW, there is but one Bible. No need for 2.
Lee52 said:
Keep typing; the errors of your theology is becoming more and more clear as you type.
Lee52 said:
Now let me explain to those who will read and understand; In the beginning, God's creation was meant to be a place that He and His creation, man and woman, could fellowship in perfect relationship. Adam and Eve blew that for all. God knew this and because He had predestined all men and women to have perfect relationship with Himself, He knew our free will choices ahead of time and planned the perfect reconciliation; Himself as Jesus; the Word of God made flesh, to reconcile ALL who will choose to believe in Him and ask that He become the perfect sacrifice for them.
We were all predestined to be in that eternal relationship with our Creator.
Lee52 said:
That some choose evil, is not by God's desire, but by man's free will.
Lee52 said:
Some here, would have others believe that the word ALL in the Bible does not really mean ALL. To accept that means that ALL of the Bible is not true and must be qualified by "those who are enlightened" beyond the words contained in the Bible.
Lee52 said:
How about we look at Jesus' own words on the subject?
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
John 3:14-15
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32
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