Baptism question???

[Schroeder]

If baptism is a "work," then so is faith.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Jesus said a man must be born of water and the Spirit.

St. Paul said "by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Notice that, in deference to your sensibilities, I left the comma out of that last clause. You still have the problem caused by that little conjunction and.

What St. Paul wrote parallels what our Lord said. Water and Spirit. Washing and Spirit.

Hard to miss that.

hard to miss Paul saying in 1 cor 1 that baptism(water baptism) is NOT part of the gospel. i was NOT sent to baptize BUT to preach the gospel. Peter said the same thing in acts 10 he was commanded to PREACH. i dont have a problem with the "AND" it joins two thing the SPirit does. you left off my comment of the first part of the verse. the ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. wonder why? read john 3:8 he speaks of ONLY THE SPIRIT. wonder why if it is supposed to be both.

The early Church Fathers show us the opinion of the early Church.

They help us to understand the Bible.

Such help is not to be rejected lightly.



Baptismal regeneration is very much taught in Scripture.

one place. titus 3:5 which is by the SPirit. show me other scripture that says it is water baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

compare it with acts 10:43 acts 15:8 eph 1:13-14 john 3:16 and many others. the spirit is NEVER given only if you get water baptized. acts 10 should prove that clear.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

could very easily mean the SPirit since Titus 3:5 speaks of the Spirit doing this. and scripture says the Blood does this and the only way to get to the blood is to be in christ and the only way to do this is throught he Spirit.

[Remember Titus 3:5, "by the washing of regeneration"?]

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

not a thing to do with water. water baptism does not bring you INTO christ only the Spirit does. other wise you remove the Spirit baptism all together.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

read rom 8. it says the SPirit was with him and if it was with him then it is also with us.

1Peter 3:20

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

read heb 9:14

 

[Maximus]

hard to miss Paul saying in 1 cor 1 that baptism(water baptism) is NOT part of the gospel. i was NOT sent to baptize BUT to preach the gospel. Peter said the same thing in acts 10 he was commanded to PREACH. i dont have a problem with the "AND" it joins two thing the SPirit does. you left off my comment of the first part of the verse. the ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. wonder why? read john 3:8 he speaks of ONLY THE SPIRIT. wonder why if it is supposed to be both.

Baptism is very much a part of the Gospel.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

one place. titus 3:5 which is by the SPirit. show me other scripture that says it is water baptism.

I showed you a number of passages of Scripture that teach baptismal regeneration.

How do you explain Jesus' words in John 3:5?

What does the word "water" mean in that verse, if not baptism?

compare it with acts 10:43 acts 15:8 eph 1:13-14 john 3:16 and many others. the spirit is NEVER given only if you get water baptized. acts 10 should prove that clear.

could very easily mean the SPirit since Titus 3:5 speaks of the Spirit doing this. and scripture says the Blood does this and the only way to get to the blood is to be in christ and the only way to do this is throught he Spirit.

Of course the Holy Spirit does the regenerating in baptism. But He does it in connection with baptism because that is how the Lord wants it done.

Cornelius and the other first Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit just prior to baptism as a special sign to the Jews. Notice, however, that they were baptized with water immediately afterwards. That fact just reinforces what our Lord Jesus taught about being born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

not a thing to do with water. water baptism does not bring you INTO christ only the Spirit does. other wise you remove the Spirit baptism all together.

read rom 8. it says the SPirit was with him and if it was with him then it is also with us.

Argue with Jesus.

He is the One who said "WATER and the Spirit" (John 3:5).

He did not say, "only the Spirit."

The Spirit does the actual work of regeneration, but He does it in and through baptism.

Why?

Because that is the way the Lord wants it done. He chose baptism as a rich metaphor of His death, burial, and resurrection and imbued it with the power of the Holy Spirit to impart the new birth.

That is what the Scripture teaches, and that is what the Church has always believed.

 

[KEPLER]

If baptism is a "work," then so is faith.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Jesus said a man must be born of water and the Spirit.

St. Paul said "by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Notice that, in deference to your sensibilities, I left the comma out of that last clause. You still have the problem caused by that little conjunction and.

What St. Paul wrote parallels what our Lord said. Water and Spirit. Washing and Spirit.

Hard to miss that.




The early Church Fathers show us the opinion of the early Church.

They help us to understand the Bible.

Such help is not to be rejected lightly.



Baptismal regeneration is very much taught in Scripture.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Remember Titus 3:5, "by the washing of regeneration"?]

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Maximus again!

 

[KEPLER]

no he did not need it. and it started at his DEATH. his death SAVED those in the past present and future. the man on the cross was saved by belief just as all those in the old covenant. nothing they did in al there ordances and scrafices did anything to save them. read Heb. it was ALL held over untill Christ sacrifice. Is all the old testement saints going to have to be water baptized. nope.

Hey! Look at that...we actually agree on something.

we dont need it either. because Christ did the ONE ACT OF OBEDIANCE FOR US. Rom 5. Scripture does NOT tell us that at all. we are saved by GRACE. read Titus 5. NOT BY RIGHTEOUS ACTS. if water baptism is needed is it not a righteous act on our behalf to do it. other wise you are saying it is not a righteous act. BUT to do his will is a righteous act is it not. the FACT is we can do no righteous act until we have the SPIRIT in us. because we can not do his will untill we have the SPirit. 1 cor 2. Acts 15:8 proves this. it is God seeing our hearts. not our works. and once we have the SPirit SCRIPTURE clearly says we are hiers to his kingdom and if that is true then what else is need to be done. Eph 1:13-14.

DOH!!!

Baptism is GOD'S Righteous act. NOT. OURS.

***rolls eyes again***

 

[KEPLER]

I didn't forget. I mentioned it in my post.

Anyway, it's good that you mentioned it again.

The sign of the Old Covenant was administered to infant boys.

The sign of the New Covenant (which is more than a mere sign) is also administered to infants.

DOH!!! First Borealis, and now you. Many apologies.

 

[Iollain]

I don't really have anything against Christian parents having their babe baptised, i just don't agree that they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they leave the church that day.

 

[KEPLER]

I don't really have anything against Christian parents having their babe baptised, i just don't agree that they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they leave the church that day.

What do you mean?

The babies CAN'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If this is what you mean, would you care to explain why?

Or do you mean they DON'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? How do you know?

K

 

[Iollain]

What do you mean?

The babies CAN'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If this is what you mean, would you care to explain why?

Or do you mean they DON'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? How do you know?

K

I mean i don't agree that the babe's baptism will necessarily be the indwelling of the Spirit, though God could work in this way.

 

[Schroeder]

Baptism is very much a part of the Gospel.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

i have explained this already not doing it again. thius passage is NOT about water baptism. read my otherr post were i explained why.

sIhowed you a number of passages of Scripture that teach baptismal regeneration.

How do you explain Jesus' words in John 3:5?

What does the word "water" mean in that verse, if not baptism?

AGAIN read the REST of the passage. if it doesnt mean naturale birth WHY does he speak of FLESH GIVES BIRTH TOI FLESH, and SPirit gives birth to the SPirit. AND why in verse 8 does he ONLY speak of the SPIRIT. SO IS EVERYONE BORN OF THE SPIRIT. it right there fully explained to you.

Of course the Holy Spirit does the regenerating in baptism. But He does it in connection with baptism because that is how the Lord wants it done.

then whats the point of water. the Lord NEVER used water baptism for anything nor taught about it nor did it.

Cornelius and the other first Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit just prior to baptism as a special sign to the Jews. Notice, however, that they were baptized with water immediately afterwards. That fact just reinforces what our Lord Jesus taught about being born of water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

did the apostles get water baptized before they received it or after NOPE. and PETER said they got it the same as they. when they BELIEVED. the FACT is it was to show your associaton with what they taught about JESUS. agian 1 cor 1 shows this. Paul was upset that they were associating wiht the teacher and NOT the one taught about, JESUS. if it was not what it was used for then explain this discussion.

Argue with Jesus.

He is the One who said "WATER and the Spirit" (John 3:5).

He did not say, "only the Spirit."

The Spirit does the actual work of regeneration, but He does it in and through baptism

absolutly NO scripture to prove that not even close. and yes he did say only the Spirit read verse 8. read john 3:16,18 and many more belief ONLY statements of CHRIST. HE never once but water baptism with belief or salvation.

Why?

Because that is the way the Lord wants it done. He chose baptism as a rich metaphor of His death, burial, and resurrection and imbued it with the power of the Holy Spirit to impart the new birth.

That is what the Scripture teaches, and that is what the Church has always believed.

NOPE it isnt. he taught BELIEF only. BUT belioef of the heart. a repentant heart. since you got john 3:5 all wrong you wont get the rest. that is what your church as believed not the Church.

 

[Schroeder]

Hey! Look at that...we actually agree on something.

DOH!!!

Baptism is GOD'S Righteous act. NOT. OURS.

***rolls eyes again***

almost agree. that is why i said you almost got it right. IT IS THE BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT THAT IS GODS WORK. it is clear water is our part, and does nothing for us in salvation and it is clear God does not need oure help in salvation and it is clear he can see the heart oif man and know whether or not he TRUELLY believes and is repentant. again acts 15:8 shows us this to be FACT. and eph 1:13-14 tells uys we received the Spirit when we believed. read eph 4:20-24. it speaks of the NEW MAN and no water baptiusm mentioned BUT WHAT the Spirit is. eph 4 says ONE baptism. there is two in scripture water and spirit. which one is about salvation. read 1 cor 12:13, it shows the ONE baptism very well. it is NOT one baptism in two parts.

 

[Schroeder]

What do you mean?

The babies CAN'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? If this is what you mean, would you care to explain why?

Or do you mean they DON'T have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? How do you know?

K

she means that untill the baby makes a commitment to Christ as there saviour they do not have the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ which joins them to his sacrifice and cleanses them of sin. BUT they do have a Spirit of God in them ALL men do. Since they are creations of God. But all man is born in sin and therefore must be united with Christ death to be cleansed. it MUST be of there own free will. NOt the will of there parents in a since. the Parents cant save them. So in effect having your child water baptized does nothing for them but make the parents fill at ease. as well as adult water baptism does nothing for you in salvation. it can and is a personal choice which may help you but in salvation it wont at all.

 

[KEPLER]

she means that untill the baby makes a commitment to Christ as there saviour they do not have the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ which joins them to his sacrifice and cleanses them of sin. BUT they do have a Spirit of God in them ALL men do. Since they are creations of God. But all man is born in sin and therefore must be united with Christ death to be cleansed. it MUST be of there own free will. NOt the will of there parents in a since. the Parents cant save them. So in effect having your child water baptized does nothing for them but make the parents fill at ease. as well as adult water baptism does nothing for you in salvation. it can and is a personal choice which may help you but in salvation it wont at all.

I'm sure she is capable of answering for herself.

 

[Loukuss]

Baptism is not -- cannot be -- our profession of faith.

You're opinion does not equate to truth, Kepler. Why should I ever believe that God would give such an arrogant man - yourself - the truth? Last time I checked, God frowned upon such behavior...
I wonder if you use this same attitude to witness to unbeleivers, and how many peoplre have you turned away from the gospel.

To say, even suggest, that Baptism is "our" action, "our" profession of faith, is to take away from God what is rightly His. (And BTW, the technical word for that is "blasphemy".)

Again, just your arrogant opinion, Kepler, and nothing more.

 

[KEPLER]

i have explained this already not doing it again. thius passage is NOT about water baptism. read my otherr post were i explained why.

Yes, it is about water baptism and has always been understood to be about water baptism.

AGAIN read the REST of the passage. if it doesnt mean naturale birth WHY does he speak of FLESH GIVES BIRTH TOI FLESH, and SPirit gives birth to the SPirit. AND why in verse 8 does he ONLY speak of the SPIRIT. SO IS EVERYONE BORN OF THE SPIRIT. it right there fully explained to you.

Because God has ordained that the Spirit works through the water. (and no, before you make any errouneous assumptions, I am NOT saying exclusively through water.) See Genesis 1.

then whats the point of water.

To give our weak faith something tangible to cling to.

the Lord NEVER used water baptism for anything nor taught about it nor did it.

Was the Spirit not with the water at creation? Were the ashes of the red heiffer not mixed with water and sprinkled on the people? Did water not flow from the rock at Horeb?

WAS. THAT. ROCK. NOT. CHRIST?????

did the apostles get water baptized before they received it or after NOPE. and PETER said they got it the same as they. when they BELIEVED. the FACT is it was to show your associaton with what they taught about JESUS. agian 1 cor 1 shows this. Paul was upset that they were associating wiht the teacher and NOT the one taught about, JESUS. if it was not what it was used for then explain this discussion.

There is no text that says whther they did or did not. You ought not speak where God has not spoken, my friend.

absolutly NO scripture to prove that not even close. and yes he did say only the Spirit read verse 8. read john 3:16,18 and many more belief ONLY statements of CHRIST. HE never once but water baptism with belief or salvation.

BZZZZ. Try again.
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:12-16
Romans 6:3-4
Galatians 3:25-28
Titus 3:4-7
Ephesians 5:25-27
Hebrews 10:22-23
1 Peter 3:18-21

We'll just keep repeating these until you DEAL. WITH. THE. TEXT.

NOPE it isnt. he taught BELIEF only. BUT belioef of the heart. a repentant heart. since you got john 3:5 all wrong you wont get the rest. that is what your church as believed not the Church.

If your imterpretation of John 3:5 is correct, then Our Lord was an idiot. "You must first be born to go to heaven" ... Well, DUH!!!

Thankfully, you are wrong.

I really wish we could have skipped the 19th century and all the heresies it spawned.

 

[Melethiel]

You're opinion does not equate to truth, Kepler. Why should I ever believe that God would give such an arrogant man - yourself - the truth? Last time I checked, God frowned upon such behavior...
I wonder if you use this same attitude to witness to unbeleivers, and how many peoplre have you turned away from the gospel.



Again, just your arrogant opinion, Kepler, and nothing more.

Does whether he is speaking in an arrogant tone or not diminish what he is saying? If I said the exact same thing in a different tone, would that make it more true? Replace "arrogant" with "sinful", and who will you ever listen to?

The fact that you are choosing to ignore what the content of the message is in favor of the tone that it is said in makes me think that you simply do not want to believe that it is true.

And Kepler - tune it down. The red letters are getting a bit annoying.

 

[Loukuss]

I read about the first 10 lines, and those people are whack-jobs, whoever they are.

I'll hold my tongue because what would come out would definitely warrant a warning.

Futhermore, they have to deal with statements like the Psalms where it says, "in sin my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:5

This Psalm passage does not go against what they were saying.

The contend that sin is an ACT, not a condition. That is 100% the oppostie of what the Bible teaches.

No it isnt. To sin to to take part in an act of disobedience to God. Its to trangress the Law He has given us. The only reason why sin has become a condition is because people, for the most part, have given up their fight against their sinful nature. They figure that they are going to sin and that they are helpless to stop it. Its the same lie that Satan fed Eve in the garden. If people started putting God first in their lives and stopped surounding themselves with sinful things and temptations, their wouldnt be a condition of sin in us. Show me in the bible where it tells us that sin is a condition in us, Kepler.

These people sound A LOT like Mormons, my friend. (Although I suspect they are actually Campbellites, who are just as much in error as Mormons).

They are the Chrurch of Christ. Not the ICC, which is known as a cult. I've read through their beliefs and they are pretty christian to me. And no, they dont sound anything like Mormons. I suggest you go read about them before you begin slandering them. Slandering is of the devil, brother.

 

[KEPLER]

Well, if Mel is telling me to cool it, then I guess I certainly have gone over the top. So I will simply leave.

Lucas, I amy sound harsh sometimes, but all I can say is, I'm not yelling. This typing thing can't really express the way I debate. Sarcasm and needling, yes. Guilty. Anger or scorn, no.

I remind you that when I thought you had been wronged (by Borealis), I came to your defense (even though it turned out I was wrong, and Borealis had indeed read you correctly)...whatever.

My frustration arises only from the fact that people make assumptions about why the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Lutherans all maintain the historic Christian teachings (with a few subtle differences) about Baptism.

I grew up in a holiness Pentecostal "believers baptism" church, so I know what the arguments against the historic and biblical positions are. I argued that position for years.

But at some point, I finally "got" what the other side was saying when they said "Baptism is not our work, it is God's work".

In other words, I finally came to the understanding that Jesus is my savior, not me.

I'm outta here.

My spologies to whomever I offended.

Cheers,

Kepler

edit: and, oh, BTW, Lucas, Happy Birthday.

 

[Loukuss]

Does whether he is speaking in an arrogant tone or not diminish what he is saying?

It diminishes his crediability. Arrogance has no place in fellowship nor in a christian life.

If I said the exact same thing in a different tone, would that make it more true?

NO, but I'd listen to you more.

The fact that you are choosing to ignore what the content of the message is in favor of the tone that it is said in makes me think that you simply do not want to believe that it is true.

I'm not ignoring what he's saying. I've responded to what he's had to say. I still think he's wrong.

And Kepler - tune it down. The red letters are getting a bit annoying.

A bit?

 

[Loukuss]

Well, if Mel is telling me to cool it, then I guess I certainly have gone over the top. So I will simply leave.

That's probably for the best.

Lucas, I amy sound harsh sometimes, but all I can say is, I'm not yelling. This typing thing can't really express the way I debate. Sarcasm and needling, yes. Guilty. Anger or scorn, no.

Sarcasm has no place in fellowship with other christians. Not on the level you bring it to. Ever heard of the saying, "You can catch more bees with honey"? Or something to the affect...

My frustration arises only from the fact that people make assumptions about why the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Lutherans all maintain the historic Christian teachings (with a few subtle differences) about Baptism.

I'm pretty sure I wasnt making any assumptions about any of those denominations.

But at some point, I finally "got" what the other side was saying when they said "Baptism is not our work, it is God's work".

In other words, I finally came to the understanding that Jesus is my savior, not me.

So let me get this straight: because I believe that baptism is our act of obedience so that God can work His magic, I believe that I'm my own savior?
Wow, you are so far off its not even funny. Talk about building up a ridiculous looking strawman!
I give God all the credit for His work through baptism. He's the one changing me and cleaning me out. All I have to do it accept it and go through it, that's my only role. How you dont accept this is beyond me. But so is most of what you say and how you say it so...

I'm outta here.

My spologies to whomever I offended.

Apologies accepted.

edit: and, oh, BTW, Lucas, Happy Birthday.

Thanks, Kepler.

 

[lamblion]

Look guys it's really not that difficult to see the truth in the gospel about the baptism. But you must first not hold so strong to your own opinion, but rather confess any sin and ask the holy spirt to guide you, and really read the text.

In order to understand the scriptures you must use it's original language for understanding. which is the greek.

Now look in Acts-2:38 If you read the tense's it was written in you would see that it does not state that water baptism is a part of the way to salvation. The plural verb "repent" goes with the plural pronoun "your" in this clause "for the forgiveness of your sins." and should be translated, "repent for the forgiveness of your sins".

The singular verd "baptized" cannot be connected to the plural clause "forgiveness of your sins". Therefore, "baptized" in the name of Jesus Christ is parenthetical, seperated from the rest of the sentence. Based on the syntax of the verse, water baptism is not a prerequisite or a requirement for forgiveness of sins, repentence, salvation, or spirit baptism. Water baptism is a visual illusration depicting to the baptism of the Holy spirit that occurs at the moment of salvation.

The baptism of the Holy spirit is a phenomenon unique to the Chrch age. To avoid confusion and distortion of this essentail doctrine, you must begin with the etymology of the word baptizo. The English "baptized" is a transliteration of the greek verd baptizo meaning "to dip, to immerse." this word was used by the ancient Greek poets, dramatists, and historians to denote identifacation of one object with another so that the nature or characteristic of the firt object is changed.

Now in Galatins-3;27 and 1Cor-12:13, this verb baptizo is used in a constative aorist tense. and it indicate that every church age believer is "baptized into Christ" at a moment of time- the moment of regeneration. The passive voice of baptizo shows that "all" church age believers recieve the action of baptism and are united into the "one body" of Christ by this one baptism of the Holy spirit,at the moment of salvation. (Eph-4:5)

God has totally comleted the work of salvation without any help. "He that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit say'th.