Baptism question???

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Paul said "water"; he never mentioned dirt or linen, did he? Go back and read what I wrote. Baptism is: washing, clothing, and burying. The water washes, clothes and buries. The water doesn't do this by itself (mechanistically); it does it because the Holy Spirit works THROUGH it. (Remember: God's habit is to work THROUGH means, whether it's a burning bush, a snake on a stick, a pillar of cloud, a rock in the desert, a baby in a manger...God works THROUGH physical things (means)). It's not "magic water"; it's "water with the Word". I have not taken the Holy Spirit out of the equation, as you seem to suspect. I am taking account of the entire Scripture, not just the parts that I like, or that fit my theology. We take "water" literally because Paul said "water".


The entire objection PRESUMES that Baptism is a work that WE do. You have disregarded what I said in earlier posts. Baptism is NOT OUR WORK. In Baptism, GOD is the active party. So this objection is moot. Baptism is NOT a work "in addition to" the Cross; Baptism is the tool which God has chosen to apply the EFFECTS of Christ's redemption TO US.


I wish it were Mike who had made this statement; imagine th irony of a Baptist telling someone they were taking the Bible "too literally". Hah! What a hoot!

Anyways,as I said above, there is no conflict here, because I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is the one operating through the water. I have always maintained that it is God's action, not ours. Jesus said in Mark 16, "be baptized": the aorist passive participle. There is NO ACTION on the part of the one being baptized; it is something being done TO him.

Baptism is an act of Creation on God's part. He creates in us clean hearts. Think, now, of the first creation story: the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. And just so in our Baptisms does the Holy Spirit hover over the waters: washing, cleansing, sanctifying, clothing, burying, creating and resurrecting. Spirit and water go together (see Genesis 1 & John 3).

Cheers,

Kepler

Kepler -



Only a little bit "off topic"....



I've found that people approach Christianity in two very different ways.

Some see it as MAN-CENTERED. They constantly talk about self. OUR faith, OUR decision, OUR obedience, OUR life, OUR quest, OUR "finding God" OUR actions, OUR heart. They have lots of "let us" sermons. They have lots of emphasis on the quality and purity of OUR faith. It's very obedience oriented. Law.

Others see it as CHRIST-CENTERED. They constantly talk about Christ. His heart, His actions, His grace. They see Christianity as about what God does. They are very grace oriented. Gospel! Soli Deo Gloria!

Both elements are true, of course, but it's a little bit like the chicken and egg thing, which flows from which. And it's all about emphasis - what is the centerpiece.

Kepler - Do you follow? Have you seen this, too?


To ME, if someone is coming to the Bible with a "MAN CENTERED" viewpoint, that it's about our obedience, our actions, etc. then they will see Baptism as an Ordinance, something we do for God, something we do in obedience, law, we have something in our hearts we can offer to God. If we come to the Bible with a "CHRIST CENTERED" viewpoint, then we'll tend to see Baptism as a Sacrament, something God does for us, something He gives us by grace.


I think this applies to a lot of issues in Christian theology.


Comments?




MY $0.01...


Keep the faith! Share the love!


- Josiah



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[KEPLER]

Kepler -



Only a little bit "off topic"....



I've found that people approach Christianity in two very different ways.

Some see it as MAN-CENTERED. They constantly talk about self. OUR faith, OUR decision, OUR obedience, OUR life, OUR quest, OUR "finding God" OUR actions, OUR heart. They have lots of "let us" sermons. They have lots of emphasis on the quality and purity of OUR faith. It's very obedience oriented. Law.

Others see it as CHRIST-CENTERED. They constantly talk about Christ. His heart, His actions, His grace. They see Christianity as about what God does. They are very grace oriented. Gospel! Soli Deo Gloria!

Both elements are true, of course, but it's a little bit like the chicken and egg thing, which flows from which. And it's all about emphasis - what is the centerpiece.

Kepler - Do you follow? Have you seen this, too?


To ME, if someone is coming to the Bible with a "MAN CENTERED" viewpoint, that it's about our obedience, our actions, etc. then they will see Baptism as an Ordinance, something we do for God, something we do in obedience, law, we have something in our hearts we can offer to God. If we come to the Bible with a "CHRIST CENTERED" viewpoint, then we'll tend to see Baptism as a Sacrament, something God does for us, something He gives us by grace.

I think this applies to a lot of issues in Christian theology.

Comments?

MY $0.01...

Keep the faith! Share the love!

- Josiah.

CJ--

I agree with your description up to the point where you said "both elements are true." Man-centered theology (which you accurately describe) is sinful at its core.

"Making a decision for Jesus", Baptism is an act of "obedience", spiritual disciplines...all of that junk is man-centered. Period. Junk.

My .03

Kepler

 

[Asinner]

Kepler,

When did this heresy first arise? Was it with the Cathars or earlier?

God Bless

 

[lamblion]

Paul said "water"; he never mentioned dirt or linen, did he? Go back and read what I wrote. Baptism is: washing, clothing, and burying. The water washes, clothes and buries. The water doesn't do this by itself (mechanistically); it does it because the Holy Spirit works THROUGH it. (Remember: God's habit is to work THROUGH means, whether it's a burning bush, a snake on a stick, a pillar of cloud, a rock in the desert, a baby in a manger...God works THROUGH physical things (means)). It's not "magic water"; it's "water with the Word". I have not taken the Holy Spirit out of the equation, as you seem to suspect. I am taking account of the entire Scripture, not just the parts that I like, or that fit my theology. We take "water" literally because Paul said "water".


The entire objection PRESUMES that Baptism is a work that WE do. You have disregarded what I said in earlier posts. Baptism is NOT OUR WORK. In Baptism, GOD is the active party. So this objection is moot. Baptism is NOT a work "in addition to" the Cross; Baptism is the tool which God has chosen to apply the EFFECTS of Christ's redemption TO US.


I wish it were Mike who had made this statement; imagine th irony of a Baptist telling someone they were taking the Bible "too literally". Hah! What a hoot!

Anyways,as I said above, there is no conflict here, because I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is the one operating through the water. I have always maintained that it is God's action, not ours. Jesus said in Mark 16, "be baptized": the aorist passive participle. There is NO ACTION on the part of the one being baptized; it is something being done TO him.

Baptism is an act of Creation on God's part. He creates in us clean hearts. Think, now, of the first creation story: the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. And just so in our Baptisms does the Holy Spirit hover over the waters: washing, cleansing, sanctifying, clothing, burying, creating and resurrecting. Spirit and water go together (see Genesis 1 & John 3).

Cheers,

Kepler

John surely baptized you with water,But I baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Not the water of the Holy spirit

 

[KEPLER]

Kepler,

When did this heresy first arise? Was it with the Cathars or earlier?

God Bless

Which heresy? "Making a decision for Jesus" or turning baptism into man's action?

Turning baptism into man's action...well certainly the Cathars and Waldensians...there may have been earlier groups, I can't recall. Typically, the theology of a man centered baptism arises from the heresy of "believers baptism" (i.e., adults and older children only). The justification for the doctrine is then imposed on Scripture.

The "making a decision for Jesus" nonsense is a PURELY American phenomenon, arising in upstate New York in the 1820s, with the preaching of the American arch-heretic Charles Grandison Finney. Finney denied BOTH of the classical views of the Atonement (Ransom (which you EOs and we Lutherans believe (although we also cobine it with elemetns of substitution) and Substitution (which RCs and most evangelicals believe). Finney was also knowingly associated with a number of non-trinitarians. His views on the Trinity are dubious at best. Not surprisingly, Mormon theology (which arose in the same region of New York) is VERY EERILY similar to Finney's theology.

Anyways, now I'm off-topic. Oops.

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[Asinner]

Which heresy? "Making a decision for Jesus" or turning baptism into man's action?

The heresy that water is unnecessary in baptism. You answered my question, though. Thank you!

God Bless

 

[KEPLER]

John surely baptized you with water,But I baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Not the water of the Holy spirit

TEXT TEXT TEXT

Paul said water. WHY???

Furthermore, Peter understood that Baptism of the HS and Water Baptism should conicide. In Acts 10, when he sees a bunch of people who have clearly received the Holy Spirit, his FIRST thought is, "Let's get some WATER."

I know that you know that Jesus' statement is not EXCLUSIVE. The TEXT does NOT say, "I baptize you with the Holy Spirit INSTEAD of Water." When we read the TEXT (including Eph 5, Titus 3 and Acts 10) we understand that what Jesus is saying is, "John's baptism by water was merely water...MY baptism [by water] will be MORE than just that: you will receive the Holy Spirit."

But I think you know this.

DEAL. WITH. THE. TEXT.

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Turning baptism into man's action...well certainly the Cathars and Waldensians...there may have been earlier groups, I can't recall. Typically, the theology of a man centered baptism arises from the heresy of "believers baptism" (i.e., adults and older children only). The justification for the doctrine is then imposed on Scripture.

The "making a decision for Jesus" nonsense is a PURELY American phenomenon, arising in upstate New York in the 1820s, with the preaching of the American arch-heretic Charles Grandison Finney. Finney denied BOTH of the classical views of the Atonement (Ransom (which you EOs and we Lutherans believe (although we also cobine it with elemetns of substitution) and Substitution (which RCs and most evangelicals believe). Finney was also knowingly associated with a number of non-trinitarians. His views on the Trinity are dubious at best. Not surprisingly, Mormon theology (which arose in the same region of New York) is VERY EERILY similar to Finney's theology.

Anyways, now I'm off-topic. Oops.

I think you're very ON TOPIC...

I think people tend to view baptism as just an extension of how they view Christianity (a point I TRIED to make earlier).

I think we often 'talk past' each other on this in large part because of that.

Now, to get off-topic (lol), I'd LOVE for you to expand on all this in a new thread. I think it's an EXTREMELY important insight, one I began to get a handle on only after a long time of wondering "what's going on here?" Understanding that helps us understand each other.


Sorry...


- Josiah



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[Inviolable]

Then what are you doing on this forum?

It said, Christian Forums.

God says who is and is not a Christian. Not a council made of man in the 4th century.

 

[KEPLER]

It said, Christian Forums.

God says who is and is not a Christian. Not a council made of man in the 4th century.

The Rules of the Forum dictate that for anyone to participate here, they must (at least in principle, if not in fact) agree with the content of the Nicene Creed. That is the BASELINE for admission.

Without committing yourself TO the Creed itself, can you say unequivocally that you agree with the CONTENT? If not, you are invited to leave.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

 

[Inviolable]

The Rules of the Forum dictate that for anyone to participate here, they must (at least in principle, if not in fact) agree with the content of the Nicene Creed. That is the BASELINE for admission.

Without committing yourself TO the Creed itself, can you say unequivocally that you agree with the CONTENT? If not, you are invited to leave.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

I agree with the content but I dont agree that the coucil itself should be used as a reference to who is and is not a Christian.
Thats like giving them the power of God.

 

[Loukuss]

Just to add a bit more wood to the fire

Throw it on the top pile!



To assert that baptism is a requirement for salvation is in effect saying that Jesus' blood being shed on the cross was not enough for you to enter heaven. Not only that, it is unbiblical. Jesus specifically promises the thief on the cross next to Him who converted just prior to his death that he would be in heaven that day with Jesus. This, of course, is lying if baptism is a legalistic requirement for salvation. [/quote]

I'm sorry, friend, but that argument doesnt hold any water (sorry for the pun). One, the thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant. Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. He was saved like others under the Old Covenant. And while Christ was on earth, He had the ability to forive people of their sins.
Lastly, how do you know that the theif wasnt baptized at all?
Mark 1:4-5

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
How can you say that the theif wasnt baptized? Arent you just making an assumption?​

 

[Loukuss]

BAPTISM:
is done FOR the forgiveness of sins (Acts2:38)
is done to SAVE us (1Peter 3:21, Acts 2:40, Mark 16:16)
Is done to WASH AWAY OUR SINS (Acts 22:16)
is done to be REBORN to new life (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-6)
is done to CLOTHE ourselves with Christ (Gal 3:26-27)
is done so that GOD will RESURRECT us from death (Colossians 2:12, Romans 6:3-6)
is done as a REQUIRMENT to enter heaven (John 3:5, Mark 16:16)
is done to put us INTO CHRIST (Romans 6:3-6, Galatians 3:26-27, 1Corinthians 12:13)

Ps. there are not my own words.

 

[Loukuss]

This whole issue arose with my because my pastor had told me that he had never been baptized. Kinda threw me for a loop. Here is this leader of a church that doesnt think that baptism is that important. But after researching this to the point of exhaustion, I've come to the decision that baptism is VERY important for us. Baptism is when we are united with Christ and crucified with Him. Just like He gave up His life for us so that we should live, we must do the same and give up our old lives. How else can we do this but through baptism? We cant. To think we can is to be proud in the eyes of the Lord, and to tell Him, "We know better, God". ​

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The work of the Cross is God's offer of life. Baptism is our full acceptance.​

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I site that really helped me was bebaptized.org. It really walks you through scripture and the arguments.​

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God bless,​

​

Lucas​

​

 

[KEPLER]

Throw it on the top pile!

To assert that baptism is a requirement for salvation is in effect saying that Jesus' blood being shed on the cross was not enough for you to enter heaven. Not only that, it is unbiblical. Jesus specifically promises the thief on the cross next to Him who converted just prior to his death that he would be in heaven that day with Jesus. This, of course, is lying if baptism is a legalistic requirement for salvation.

I'm sorry, friend, but that argument doesnt hold any water (sorry for the pun). One, the thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant. Baptism into Christ was not put into practice until Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2 after Christ had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven. He was saved like others under the Old Covenant. And while Christ was on earth, He had the ability to forive people of their sins.
Lastly, how do you know that the theif wasnt baptized at all?
Mark 1:4-5

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Then <U>all the ​

How can you say that the theif wasnt baptized? Arent you just making an assumption?​

Ummm, considering that Paul told us that the Jews wandering in the desert following Moses around were "baptized into Christ" in the Red Sea, the pre/post pentecost distinction is bull-hooey. [edit: oops, Paul "baptized in Moses. However, He also said that the Rock that they drank from was Christ, so my point still stands...]

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever." If God had wanted to, he could have had David walking around baptizing people into Christ...the just wouldn't have known yet who Jesus was. God is NOT limited by time contraints. He exists OUTSIDE of time.

The distinction between John's baptism and Jesus' baptism is has NOTING TO DO WITH THE TIME IT WAS ADMINISTERED. The distinction is ENTIRELY about what Jesus said would accompany His baptism: the Holy Spirit who would wash, cleanse, sanctify, etc etc etc.

Baptism IS necessary for salvation, but (as the Thief on the Cross demonstrates) not absolutely necessary. The thief MAY have experienced a "baptsim of blood" as the Eastern Orthodox hold, or a "baptism of desire" as the Roman Catholics say, or perhaps God -- in His mercy -- may have simply granted an exception due to extenuating circumstances. But the theif's example is not our model.

Our model is Christ. When Christ was Baptized, the Holy Spirit was present. The Holy Spirit was present because of Christ, not becasue of John the Baptizer. And just as in Christ's baptism, the Holy Spirit is present in ours.

Amen.

Kepler

 

[KEPLER]

This whole issue arose with my because my pastor had told me that he had never been baptized. Kinda threw me for a loop. Here is this leader of a church that doesnt think that baptism is that important. But after researching this to the point of exhaustion, I've come to the decision that baptism is VERY important for us. Baptism is when we are united with Christ and crucified with Him. Just like He gave up His life for us so that we should live, we must do the same and give up our old lives. How else can we do this but through baptism? We cant. To think we can is to be proud in the eyes of the Lord, and to tell Him, "We know better, God".​

Everything's A-ok so far...but I really have to wonder about your pastor!

The work of the Cross is God's offer of life. Baptism is our full acceptance.

DOH!!!

The first sentence is perfect. The second sentence should read: Baptism is how God applies the benefits won by Christ on the Cross to us.

It cannot be emphasized too much that Baptism has NOTHING AT ALL to do with our actions. In Baptism, the ONLY active party is the Holy Spirit.
​

Otherwise, very good.

K

 

[GraceInHim]

Baptism from the Bible in simple words

Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

8:26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise, and go toward the south
to the way that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza. This is a desert."
8:27 He arose and went; and behold, there was a man of Ethiopia,
a eunuch of great authority under Candace, queen of the Ethiopians,
who was over all her treasure, who had come to Jerusalem to worship.
8:28 He was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
8:29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go near, and join yourself to this chariot."
8:30 Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said,
"Do you understand what you are reading?"
8:31 He said, "How can I, unless someone explains it to me?"
He begged Philip to come up and sit with him.

8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture which he was reading was this,

"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. As a lamb before his shearer is silent,
So he doesn't open his mouth.
8:33 In his humiliation, his judgment was taken away.
Who will declare His generation? For his life is taken from the earth." Isaiah 53:7,8
​

8:34 The eunuch answered Philip,
"Who is the prophet talking about? About himself, or about someone else?"
8:35 Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached to him Jesus.

Baptism

8:36 As they went on the way, they came to some water, and the eunuch said,
"Behold, here is water. What is keeping me from being baptized?"
8:37 {"Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.'
He answered, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.'"}
8:38 He commanded the chariot to stand still, and they both went down into the water,
both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away,
and the eunuch didn't see him any more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus. Passing through,
he preached the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea.

Now most churches require you to go through a whole program of courses before they will baptize you. But those are good to go through. For few do as much Bible study as the Ethiopian did before he got baptized. And the churches want to make sure new converts are genuine and have a clear understanding of the faith. But whatever your situation, if you want to follow Christ you must be baptized.

By God's providence Philip was in the right place at the right time for this man to hear the gospel.

 

[Loukuss]

Everything's A-ok so far...but I really have to wonder about your pastor!​

He's just another servant of God that needs a little help in that area of his life. ​

​

​

​

The first sentence is perfect. The second sentence should read: Baptism is how God applies the benefits won by Christ on the Cross to us.

​

It cannot be emphasized too much that Baptism has NOTHING AT ALL to do with our actions. In Baptism, the ONLY active party is the Holy Spirit.​

Hold on. You're trying to tell me that our conscience decision to be baptized has nothing to do with us? I know what you're saying, Kepler, and I agree with you for the most part, however, our free will to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and then be baptized by water in order to be unified with Him has SOMETHING to do with US.
We are turning to God and saying, "Lord, I want to give up my old life and let my old life die, so that You can make me new in You".
I realize that it is the Holy Spirit doing the work, but we still have to make the decision to do it, therefore our actions, along with God's, are in perfect harmony.

God bless,

Lucas
​

 

[KEPLER]

[/color][/font][/color][/b]

He's just another servant of God that needs a little help in that area of his life. [/left]
[/center]

Hold on. You're trying to tell me that our conscience decision to be baptized has nothing to do with us? I know what you're saying, Kepler, and I agree with you for the most part, however, our free will to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and then be baptized by water in order to be unified with Him has SOMETHING to do with US.
We are turning to God and saying, "Lord, I want to give up my old life and let my old life die, so that You can make me new in You".
I realize that it is the Holy Spirit doing the work, but we still have to make the decision to do it, therefore our actions, along with God's, are in perfect harmony.

God bless,

Lucas
​

[/color][/font][/color]

Our only active part is receiving it, which is actually a very passive activity. We go to the baptistry in faith, because we are called. But it is God who is at work.

However, why is it that you feel so compelled to asserrt, "It must have SOMETHING to do with us"? Really? Why? I thought it had to do with Jesus.

Kepler

 

[Loukuss]

We go to the baptistry in faith, because we are called. But it is God who is at work.

Ok.

However, why is it that you feel so compelled to assert, "It must have SOMETHING to do with us"? Really? Why? I thought it had to do with Jesus.

Yes, really. Why? It has to do with a relationship with Jesus Christ, our Lord and God. For there to be a relationship, it takes two. Our focus is all about Jesus, but it takes Him and us coming together to make it so.

God bless,

Lucas