• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Baptism question???

Status
Not open for further replies.

KEPLER

Crux sola est nostra theologia
Mar 23, 2005
3,513
223
3rd Rock from the Sun
✟27,398.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
MikeMcK said:
Neither. Baptism is a strictly symbolic ordinance that neither saves, nor adds to salvation.

It is simply a way to declare our decision to follow Christ and our identification with the local church.

Ephesians 5:25-6 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Rom 6:3-4 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Heb 10:22-23 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Acts 22:12-16 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'"

Gal 3:26-27 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


Nope. Nothing "symbolic" about any of that. I really have doubts about liberals who don't believe what the Bible says....
 
Upvote 0

MikeMcK

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2002
9,600
654
✟13,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
KEPLER said:
Nope. Nothing "symbolic" about any of that. I really have doubts about liberals who don't believe what the Bible says....

I'm hardly a liberal. If you really think I am, then I wish you'd get together with those who tell me that I'm some fire-breathing, Bible thumping, fire and brimstone-er and you guys make up your minds one way or the othe

I'm a conservative Baptist who's about as fundamentalist as fundamentalist gets.

I do believe what the Bible says. The problem is that the verses you're referring to aren't about baptism.

Ephesians 5:25-6 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.


The washing with water here isn't baptism, but our being made righteous through Christ, who is the Logos, or word, of God.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This is a faulty translations. The correct translation should be, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;".

The regeneration spoken of here isn't baptism, because we're not regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We're regenerated by the Holy Spirit, who we receive at the moment of salvation.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


What you're forgetting is that the crux of this passage isn't the baptism, but the ark. The ark was a type of Christ. This passage, again, is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to every believer at the moment of salvation.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

I tend to go with Matthew Henry on this one:

Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ; that is, "firmly believe the doctrine of Christ, and submit to his grace and government; and make an open solemn profession of this, and come under an engagement to abide by it, by submitting to the ordinance of baptism; be proselyted to Christ and to his holy religion, and renounce your infidelity.’’ They must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. They did believe in the Father and the Holy Ghost speaking by the prophets; but they must also believe in the name of Jesus, that he is the Christ, the Messias promised to the fathers. "Take Jesus for your king, and by baptism swear allegiance to him; take him for your prophet, and hear him; take him for your priest, to make atonement for you,’’ which seems peculiarly intended here; for they must be baptized in his name for the remission of sins upon the score of his righteousness. (3.) This is pressed upon each particular person: Every one of you. "Even those of you that have been the greatest sinners, if they repent and believe, are welcome to be baptized; and those who think they have been the greatest saints have yet need to repent, and believe, and be baptized. There is grace enough in Christ for every one of you, be you ever so many, and grace suited to the case of every one. Israel of old were baptized unto Moses in the camp, the whole body of the Israelites together, when they passed through the cloud and the sea (1 Co. 10:1, 2), for the covenant of peculiarity was national; but now every one of you distinctly must be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and transact for himself in this great affair.’’ See Col. 1:28. 2. He gives them encouragement to take this course:—(1.) "It shall be for the remission of sins. Repent of your sin, and it shall not be your ruin; be baptized into the faith of Christ, and in truth you shall be justified, which you could never be by the law of Moses. Aim at this, and depend upon Christ for it, and this you shall have. As the cup in the Lord’s supper is the New Testament in the blood of Christ for the remission of sins, so baptism is in the name of Christ for the remission of sins. Be washed, and you shall be washed.’’

Rom 6:3-4 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

This isn't referring to water baptism for salvation, but to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or the sealing of the Holy Spirit that every believer receives at the moment of salvation.

 
Upvote 0

lamblion

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2006
1,005
32
Houston, Tx
✟31,428.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
KEPLER said:
Ephesians 5:25-6 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Titus 3:4-7 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Rom 6:3-4 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Heb 10:22-23 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Acts 22:12-16 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'"

Gal 3:26-27 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


Nope. Nothing "symbolic" about any of that. I really have doubts about liberals who don't believe what the Bible says....
All of these speak of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which happens at salvation. Take a very close look. hopfully the spirit will guide you. But really please look at the scriptures you wrote, look closely
God Bless!!!
 
Upvote 0

Inviolable

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2006
2,285
59
✟3,179.00
Faith
Christian
LucasGoltz said:
How necessary is baptism to our salvation as christians? Is it a requirement or just a sacrament that gives us grace from God?

God bless,

Lucas

Oh man did you ask this question on the wrong forum :D

What denomination are you?

Catholics believe that baptism is necessary.

People who go strictly by the Gospel say it isnt necessary but a good way to show the world you are a Christian.

Myself I believe I asked for forgiveness and received it then chose to be baptised.

It can put you in the Spirit and show anyone watching that you are washing away the old you in favor of the Grace of God.
 
Upvote 0

KEPLER

Crux sola est nostra theologia
Mar 23, 2005
3,513
223
3rd Rock from the Sun
✟27,398.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
MikeMcK said:
I'm hardly a liberal. If you really think I am, then I wish you'd get together with those who tell me that I'm some fire-breathing, Bible thumping, fire and brimstone-er and you guys make up your minds one way or the othe

I'm a conservative Baptist who's about as fundamentalist as fundamentalist gets.
"Today's fundamentalist is tomorrow's liberal"...

I do believe what the Bible says. The problem is that the verses you're referring to aren't about baptism.
Now you're goin' all Bill Clinton on me...."is" doesn't mean "is"..."baptism" doesn't mean "baptism".

The washing with water here isn't baptism, but our being made righteous through Christ, who is the Logos, or word, of God.

Fascinating. Kindly explain to me two things:
1) Why does Paul use a word here for washing (greek: loutron) that demands "water".
2) Further, why does Paul even mention water? If he's not talking about water baptism, why on earth is he talking about water???
The imagery in this verse (if you read correctly) is really quite beautiful.

In the Ancient world, prior to burial, a dead body was first prepared by washing it with clean water and wrapping it in cloths. This is what the word "loutron" (washing) in verse 26 is talking about. Since (as Paul says in Romans) we are "dead in tresspasses and sins", our bodies ought to be disposed of in the proper way: washed, clothed, and buried.

It is NOT a coincidence then that Paul uses ALL of these words when talking about baptism: "washed" (Acts 22, Titus 3, Eph 5), "clothed" (Gal 3), and buried (Rom 6).

So, back to Eph 5... We, who are dead in trespasses and sins are washed for burial in our baptisms, and yet we have new life due to the Spirit. We die with Christ, and are again alive with Christ. Through water with the word (logos).

You have to DEAL. WITH. THE. TEXT.

Explain away "water" all you want...next it'll be the Virgin Birth.

Cheers,

Kepler
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Iollain said:
No it's not necessary, but it is commanded so that is why we do it.

Very good answer sister! It also depends on which denomination you talk with too. Without offending a particular denomination, some believe you must be baptized in order to be truely saved. I don't subscribe to this theory myself. But because Christ commanded us to do it, we should be baptized after our confession in Him.
 
Upvote 0

MikeMcK

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2002
9,600
654
✟13,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
KEPLER said:
"Today's fundamentalist is tomorrow's liberal"...

I disagree. We appear to be holding the line on conservatism.

Now you're goin' all Bill Clinton on me...."is" doesn't mean "is"..."baptism" doesn't mean "baptism".

There are different kinds of baptism spoken of in the Bible.

Water baptism. Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptism of fire. Literal baptism. metaphorical baptism...


Fascinating. Kindly explain to me two things:

1) Why does Paul use a word here for washing (greek: loutron) that demands "water".

2) Further, why does Paul even mention water? If he's not talking about water baptism, why on earth is he talking about water???


The imagery in this verse (if you read correctly) is really quite beautiful.

I did read it correctly. On top of that, I even looked it up in a couple of different commentaries before I responded to make sure that I had read it correctly.

So far, all of the commentaries I've seen agree with those of us who have tried to explain to you that this doesn't mean water baptism as a means of salvation.

Explain away "water" all you want...next it'll be the Virgin Birth.

No, I haven't "explained away" anything.
 
Upvote 0

Katarn

... an agent in the Army of Love.
Mar 7, 2006
104
6
The Great Southland of the Holy Spirit.
✟22,775.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
jad123,

Just to add a bit more wood to the fire,

I find that I lean toward the belief that it is a requirement.

To assert that baptism is a requirement for salvation is in effect saying that Jesus' blood being shed on the cross was not enough for you to enter heaven. Not only that, it is unbiblical. Jesus specifically promises the thief on the cross next to Him who converted just prior to his death that he would be in heaven that day with Jesus. This, of course, is lying if baptism is a legalistic requirement for salvation. Jesus came to set us free from legalistic and religiousness when He fulfilled the Law and the prophets. Paul says that all you have to do to receive forgiveness is believe that Jesus died for your sins - we are saved by grace (i.e. a free gift from God that cannot be earned by any [religious] works) and not by works lest any man should boast.

Jesus in John 3:16 says that whoever believes in Him will be saved. He never said that people who believe in Him and who have been [physically] baptised will be saved. In fact, Jesus never mentions it at all in the Gospels, let alone a requirement for salvation. It is just a religious sacrament - a symbol for the inward change that has happened through your faith in Jesus. In effect, when you accept Christ in your life by faith you have been washed clean - white as snow - from the stains of your sins; you are a new creation due to the receiving of the Holy Spirit. How? Through being dunked in water? No. You have been clensed because and only because you have asked and Jesus has forgiven you. You have been washed in the blood, so to speak. Baptism is just a religious symbol that you are publically stating that you have accepted Christ. It is the faith that you already come with that saves you, not the baptism itself.

By all means, I am not discouraging baptism, only the belief that it is a requirement for salvation. One should also make a distinction between baptism with water, and baptism with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33)...

Through the step of baptisim we are separated from our sin aka. the old life.

Rather it is through faith in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit that we are made a new creation, not water baptism itself... This would be baptism by the Holy Spirit which happens at conversion...
 
Upvote 0

Inviolable

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2006
2,285
59
✟3,179.00
Faith
Christian
KEPLER said:
"Today's fundamentalist is tomorrow's liberal"...


Now you're goin' all Bill Clinton on me...."is" doesn't mean "is"..."baptism" doesn't mean "baptism".



Fascinating. Kindly explain to me two things:
1) Why does Paul use a word here for washing (greek: loutron) that demands "water".
2) Further, why does Paul even mention water? If he's not talking about water baptism, why on earth is he talking about water???
The imagery in this verse (if you read correctly) is really quite beautiful.

In the Ancient world, prior to burial, a dead body was first prepared by washing it with clean water and wrapping it in cloths. This is what the word "loutron" (washing) in verse 26 is talking about. Since (as Paul says in Romans) we are "dead in tresspasses and sins", our bodies ought to be disposed of in the proper way: washed, clothed, and buried.

It is NOT a coincidence then that Paul uses ALL of these words when talking about baptism: "washed" (Acts 22, Titus 3, Eph 5), "clothed" (Gal 3), and buried (Rom 6).

So, back to Eph 5... We, who are dead in trespasses and sins are washed for burial in our baptisms, and yet we have new life due to the Spirit. We die with Christ, and are again alive with Christ. Through water with the word (logos).

You have to DEAL. WITH. THE. TEXT.

Explain away "water" all you want...next it'll be the Virgin Birth.

Cheers,

Kepler

Not to throw you way off here, but washing doesnt always demand water. If its used as a metaphor to demonstrate a cleansing of the spirit being washed clean of sin.

Which is what Gods Grace does. If Jesus is all you need to be free of sin then why would God want you to get wet?


So do I have to accept Jesus as my savior AND get baptised or just accept Jesus as my savior?
Or is being baptised accepting Jesus as my savior?

I ask this because the first time I felt the Holy Spirit I wasnt submerged in water and that is when I knew I was going to Heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Rut

All creation points to the almighty Creator.
Oct 31, 2005
43,794
761
Norway
✟71,960.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Iollain said:
No it's not necessary, but it is commanded so that is why we do it.

So all Christian in Time of Jesus didn`t get baptised:confused: Why shall we do thing that is commanded :confused: that can be wrong to doi what other people do.Shall we not follow the Bible:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
Upvote 0

PaladinValer

Traditional Orthodox Anglican
Apr 7, 2004
23,587
1,245
44
Myrtle Beach, SC
✟30,305.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
djkraemoore said:
If it is a requirement to be baptised for salvation, what happended to the theif on the cross next to Jesus?

He didn't need to be.

This is what Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, don't seem to understand....the NT era didn't begin until Pentecost. Before then, the OT was still in place because the Church wasn't around yet.

Baptism is now necessary for salvation. That's what Jesus tells us, that is what Scripture tells us, that is what Tradition tells us, and that is the logical conclusion when Reason is properly utilized.

BigChristian, that website isn't even a Christian website. They reject the Nicene Creed.
 
Upvote 0

Inviolable

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2006
2,285
59
✟3,179.00
Faith
Christian
PaladinValer said:
He didn't need to be.

This is what Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, don't seem to understand....the NT era didn't begin until Pentecost. Before then, the OT was still in place because the Church wasn't around yet.

Baptism is now necessary for salvation. That's what Jesus tells us, that is what Scripture tells us, that is what Tradition tells us, and that is the logical conclusion when Reason is properly utilized.

BigChristian, that website isn't even a Christian website. They reject the Nicene Creed.

I reject the Nicene Creed as well. That didnt stop Jesus from coming into my life. I am still filled with the Holy Spirit. The only thing conforming me is the Holy Spirit. Amen!

The NT era began when Jesus was born. He himself preached and demonstrated that he is the way. He didn't just demonstrate it on the cross.

You'll have to forgive me, my degree came from the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
PaladinValer said:
He didn't need to be.

This is what Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, don't seem to understand....the NT era didn't begin until Pentecost. Before then, the OT was still in place because the Church wasn't around yet.

Baptism is now necessary for salvation. That's what Jesus tells us, that is what Scripture tells us, that is what Tradition tells us, and that is the logical conclusion when Reason is properly utilized.

The question of Baptism is as old on this forum as anything else. And one thing is for sure, as long as some people insist that you have to be Baptized in order to complete your salvation as this person says, it will always remain a conflict in this forum. A few questions, did Jesus say you had to be Baptized? No, He simply told the disciples to:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Matt. 28:19

Our belief in Jesus Christ is the foundation of all of Christianity. Jesus didn't tell the crowds to believe and be baptized, Jesus said:

"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." -John 14:11

It is my belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died on the cross for my sins, and was raised on the third day by God's power for my justification that gets me into heaven. My baptism will not get me into heaven, Jesus Himself said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." -John 3:16-17

Jesus never preached believe and be baptized! The only place this is found in the gospels is in Mark 16:16 and that concerned their commission to out into the world. You will never see this in the Gospels before Jesus arose from the dead! Jesus said "whosoever believeth in him." Believes in Him, that's about as simple as it gets. Unless you want to argue that what Jesus really meant was "believe in him and be baptized." And that isn't what the scriptures say!

"... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16


When Jesus cured the man born blind, after the Pharasees questioned him and threw him out of the temple, Jesus sought him out. What did Jesus say to him?

"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." -John 9:35-38

Strange that Jesus didn't tell that blind man who was made whole to go and get baptized before he worshipped Him. Hum...Seems to me, that unless the scriptures are lying, that Jesus asked him do you believe and not have you believed and been baptized? Seems to me that put emphasis on believing rather than baptizing.


"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -Romans 10:9-11,13

Paul didn't say confess with your mouth, believe with your heart that God raised Him from the dead and be baptized, and you will be saved.

Now I do agree that Jesus told the disciples to go out and teach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, that I do not argue against. But what about the poor soul who is on their death bed, who makes a confession of faith and repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Are you going to tell them that they must be baptized because it is a requirement for salvation? Or how about the person who is in prison and truely repents of their sins and the crimes they have done and have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior just before they are sent to the execution chamber. Are you going to tell them that their salvation isn't complete because baptism is necessary for salvation? I don't think so. While baptism is an ordinance instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, baptism as a requirement for salvation is simply, IMHO, wrong. Jesus said "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but hath everlasting life." I've said it once and I'll keep saying it as long as I'm a member of this forum, my belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God, and the work He did on Calvary, dying for my sins when I should have been there, and being raised on the third day by the power of God, that is what gets me into heaven, not a baptism. And since when did become a requirement to subscribe to a certain creed? The only creed I know of that we have to subscribe to is the one that says Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, died on the cross for my sins, rose from the dead on the third day. And is on the right hand of the Father making intercessions for the saints.

Praise God! John 3:16 says it all!
 
Upvote 0

KEPLER

Crux sola est nostra theologia
Mar 23, 2005
3,513
223
3rd Rock from the Sun
✟27,398.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Inviolable said:
Not to throw you way off here, but washing doesnt always demand water. If its used as a metaphor to demonstrate a cleansing of the spirit being washed clean of sin.

Which is what Gods Grace does. If Jesus is all you need to be free of sin then why would God want you to get wet?


So do I have to accept Jesus as my savior AND get baptised or just accept Jesus as my savior?
Or is being baptised accepting Jesus as my savior?

I ask this because the first time I felt the Holy Spirit I wasnt submerged in water and that is when I knew I was going to Heaven.

The TEXT, my friend. Deal with the text. What does God say?

Why, in Ephesians, does Paul explicitly say water? What's the point?
 
Upvote 0

Borealis

Catholic Homeschool Dad
Dec 8, 2003
6,906
621
55
Barrie, Ontario
✟10,009.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Time to pull out some heavy hitters...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp
excerpt said:
Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.
There then follows a lost list of citations from the Early Church Fathers, i.e. the ones who spread the faith as it was taught to them by the Apostles, explaining exactly why Baptism is required.

And now for some biblical evidence:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II
excerpt said:
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.
Seems pretty clear to me.
 
Upvote 0

lamblion

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2006
1,005
32
Houston, Tx
✟31,428.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
KEPLER said:
"Today's fundamentalist is tomorrow's liberal"...


Now you're goin' all Bill Clinton on me...."is" doesn't mean "is"..."baptism" doesn't mean "baptism".




Fascinating. Kindly explain to me two things:
1) Why does Paul use a word here for washing (greek: loutron) that demands "water".
2) Further, why does Paul even mention water? If he's not talking about water baptism, why on earth is he talking about water???

The imagery in this verse (if you read correctly) is really quite beautiful.

In the Ancient world, prior to burial, a dead body was first prepared by washing it with clean water and wrapping it in cloths. This is what the word "loutron" (washing) in verse 26 is talking about. Since (as Paul says in Romans) we are "dead in tresspasses and sins", our bodies ought to be disposed of in the proper way: washed, clothed, and buried.

It is NOT a coincidence then that Paul uses ALL of these words when talking about baptism: "washed" (Acts 22, Titus 3, Eph 5), "clothed" (Gal 3), and buried (Rom 6).

So, back to Eph 5... We, who are dead in trespasses and sins are washed for burial in our baptisms, and yet we have new life due to the Spirit. We die with Christ, and are again alive with Christ. Through water with the word (logos).

You have to DEAL. WITH. THE. TEXT.

Explain away "water" all you want...next it'll be the Virgin Birth.

Cheers,

Kepler
Yes paul was literally talking about water, but everything he mentioned is symbolic to what the spirit has completed. When he said Washed, clothed, and buried did he literally mean to go and bury ourselves also. Are is water the only one we should take literally.That whould be kind of weird since thier in the same context. I see that all three that paul had given are only symbolic. When we are baptized by water it is only an outer apperance to ourselves are others that we haved devoted our lives to christ, To say we must be baptized to be saved is like saying you must speak in tonges in order to be filled with the spirit, which is also misunderstood. People who add to the cross are the eniemies of God, for they think God needs help to complete the work os salvation.

You are using the right scriptures, but are taking them too literally, their only symbolic to what the spirit had done. Paul understood this because he said in "1corinthians-12:13 "For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews are Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and all made to drink into one spirit.

This passage didn't say "for by water baptism we are baptized into one body"
Im sure If water baptism was requirered paul, through the insperation of the spirit, would of made that clearly seen
 
Upvote 0

KEPLER

Crux sola est nostra theologia
Mar 23, 2005
3,513
223
3rd Rock from the Sun
✟27,398.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
lamblion said:
Yes paul was literally talking about water, but everything he mentioned is symbolic to what the spirit has completed. When he said Washed, clothed, and buried did he literally mean to go and bury ourselves also. Are is water the only one we should take literally.

Paul said "water"; he never mentioned dirt or linen, did he? Go back and read what I wrote. Baptism is: washing, clothing, and burying. The water washes, clothes and buries. The water doesn't do this by itself (mechanistically); it does it because the Holy Spirit works THROUGH it. (Remember: God's habit is to work THROUGH means, whether it's a burning bush, a snake on a stick, a pillar of cloud, a rock in the desert, a baby in a manger...God works THROUGH physical things (means)). It's not "magic water"; it's "water with the Word". I have not taken the Holy Spirit out of the equation, as yo
u seem to suspect. I am taking account of the entire Scripture, not just the parts that I like, or that fit my theology. We take "water" literally because Paul said "water".

That whould be kind of weird since thier in the same context. I see that all three that paul had given are only symbolic. When we are baptized by water it is only an outer apperance to ourselves are others that we haved devoted our lives to christ, To say we must be baptized to be saved is like saying you must speak in tonges in order to be filled with the spirit, which is also misunderstood. People who add to the cross are the eniemies of God, for they think God needs help to complete the work os salvation.
The entire objection PRESUMES that Baptism is a work that WE do. You have disregarded what I said in earlier posts. Baptism is NOT OUR WORK. In Baptism, GOD is the active party. So this objection is moot. Baptism is NOT a work "in addition to" the Cross; Baptism is the tool which God has chosen to apply the EFFECTS of Christ's redemption TO US.

You are using the right scriptures, but are taking them too literally, their only symbolic to what the spirit had done. Paul understood this because he said in "1corinthians-12:13 "For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews are Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and all made to drink into one spirit.
This passage didn't say "for by water baptism we are baptized into one body"
Im sure If water baptism was requirered paul, through the insperation of the spirit, would of made that clearly seen
I wish it were Mike who had made this statement; imagine th irony of a Baptist telling someone they were taking the Bible "too literally". Hah! What a hoot!

Anyways,as I said above, there is no conflict here, because I have never denied that the Holy Spirit is the one operating through the water. I have always maintained that it is God's action, not ours. Jesus said in Mark 16, "be baptized": the aorist passive participle. There is NO ACTION on the part of the one being baptized; it is something being done TO him.

Baptism is an act of Creation on God's part. He creates in us clean hearts. Think, now, of the first creation story: the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. And just so in our Baptisms does the Holy Spirit hover over the waters: washing, cleansing, sanctifying, clothing, burying, creating and resurrecting. Spirit and water go together (see Genesis 1 & John 3).

Cheers,

Kepler
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.