Baptism and Fundamentalists

VCViking · Apr 25, 2012

ptomwebster said:
VC

You are totally disregarding subject and object of the sentences you found.

I have been saying all along that baptism is not a part of salvation or fundamentalism. What are you arguing about????

Ummm...I'm not arguing about anything. You're the one who stated there is no discussion of baptism on the website. You said I was wrong. I merely showed you quotes and links, like you asked for, where discussion took place.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read your posts to see who is arguing.

Here's your comments,

ptomwebster said:
When did read that document last or have you ever read it. It does NOT talk about Baptism anywhere that I have seen over that last several years. It doesn't even use the word Baptism without it being part of a church name. Read the website, it's NOT there! (unless there is a page I missed over the years)

ptomwebster said:
I have read the whole document. You need to prove it's there by posting a link to the page it's on or copying and pasting it here. There is no discussion of baptism in the document.

No one is shouting!

ptomwebster said:
An exclamation point is not shouting on any forum I have been on in 14 years. The fact is you know you are wrong. Baptism is not part of Fundamentalism. VC, if you don't want to answer or if you can't answer it's OK, I understand.

I was merely trying to help. I even thanked you for answering me on an earlier post. I know better now for the future you don't want any.

DeaconDean · Apr 26, 2012

Nova Scotian Boy said:
All those names you just mentioned with the exception of Moody were Presbyterians and would of rejected the definition of baptism your trying to put forth. If your trying to keep people who do not hold to a credo-baptist position from posting in this forum you should not be using these names to straightens your argument it does the very opposite.

Like I said, the matter is not one of Presbyterianor Baptists, it is the matter of whether or not baptism is necesary to/for salvation.

Your own Westminster Confession of Faith of 1642 states:

Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church, but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life: which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in his Church until the end of the world.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Nowhere in your confession does it state that baptism is necessary to/for salvation.

And that is the point.

Archibald Alexander Hodge, Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, D.L. Moody all would agree on that point.

In fact, A. A. Hodge goes so far as to say:

Its design is

1st.

Primarily, to signify, seal, and convey to those to whom they belong the benefits of the covenant of grace. Thus(1) It symbolizes "the washing of regeneration" "the renewing of the Holy Ghost," which unites the believer to Christ, and so makes him a participant in Christs life and all other benefits.1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27; Titus 3:5. (2) Christ herein visibly seals his promises to those who receive it with faith, and invests them with the grace promised.

2nd

. Its design was, secondarily, as springing from the former,(1) to be a visible sign of our covenant to be the Lords, i.e., to accept his salvation, and to consecrate ourselves to his service. (2) And, hence, to be a badge of our public profession, our separation from the world, and our initiation into the visible church. As a badge it marks us as belonging to the Lord, and consequently (a) distinguishes us from the world, (b) symbolizes our union with our fellowChristians.1 Corinthians 12:13.

Source

And he even goes on to say that Baptist and Presbyterians agree on certain aspects of baptism:

Baptists agree with us that baptism with water is an emblem of spiritual purification, i.e., regeneration,

Baptists agree with us that water baptism is an emblem of purification.

Ibid

So this is not a "baptist" or "presbyterian" thing, but rather, is baptism necessary to/for salvation.

How hard is that to understand?

Furthermore they would have held the view that although tradition is not infallible it is incredible valuable.

That is not what the Westminster Confession says:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

Ibid

Tradition has no place in Fundamentalism.

And here again, why is so hard to say whether or not one believe that in order to be saved, as some denominations teach, you have to be baptized?

Are you baptized because your saved, or are you baptized so you can be saved?

And I know that neither Hodge, Warfield, or Moody believed the latter.

Because certain groups, not Presbyterians mind you, but certain denominations teach, and confess that:

it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved

Source

In other words, repenting, confessing, believing is not enough to save, you must be baptized because without it "we cannot be saved".

And again, are you baptized because you were saved, or, are you saved because you were baptized?

God Bless

Till all are one.

FredVB · Apr 26, 2012

Fred V B said:
In the case of children, the fundamental biblical position would be to have them being believing Christians to be baptized.

Albion said:
Let's remember that this issue is not one that is defined one way or the other in the fundamentals.

A Fundamentalist Christian is a born again believer in Lord Jesus Christ who:

Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;

Believes whatever the Bible says is so;

Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";

Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
a. The doctrine of the Trinity
b. The incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, ascension into Heaven, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ
c. The new birth through regeneration of the Holy Spirit
d. The resurrection of saints to life eternal
e. The resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death
f. The fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ;

Practices fidelity to that faith, and endeavors to preach it to every creature;

Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth; and

Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.

Therefore, Fundamentalism is a militant orthodoxy with a soulwinning zeal. While Fundamentalists may differ on certain interpretations of Scripture, we join in unity of heart and common purpose for the defense of the Faith and the preaching of the Gospel, without compromise or division.

ptomwebster said:
There are a number of different groups that refer to themselves as fundamentalist. Decisions on baptism are left to individual groups within fundamentalism.

Notice I did not actually say something of what was a fundamentalist position, I had said the "fundamental biblical position". As I answers to something in a previous post, I think I am fundamentalist because I believe all the Bible's teachings as being true. What is true about the Statement of Faith is true because of the truth shown in Bible teaching. Anything else would be like tradition. How would that be considered fundamentalist? I had said all have traditions, and so fundamentalists too. But as I said, even then, it is not Bible teaching that there should be baptism for any, other than believers. And so baptism does not do something for salvation, and I specificslly say believers dhould be baptized, not the saved should be baptized,true believers are saved because Yahweh promises that, and those professing that faith whereby they are saved are the ones who should be baptized. I say it that way because there are on occasion those making a false profession, but that is not our fault or that of any other, and we cannot second-guess professions.

Albion · Apr 26, 2012

Fred V B said:
Notice I did not actually say something of what was a fundamentalist position, I had said the "fundamental biblical position".

Very true, and I wondered about it at the time...but you know that people don't always choose their words as carefully as that in order to make a fine distinction.

FredVB · Apr 26, 2012

Albion said:
Very true, and I wondered about it at the time...but you know that people don't always choose their words as carefully as that in order to make a fine distinction.

Thank you for your response, I do not care for responding to things about what I did not say, for having been misunderstood, and I appreciate it when someone shows they underrstand. Some just see something in a post and not the rest of what is said.

The inerrancy of the Bible is one thing to believe, over any tradition, in the Statement, and whst there is about baptism is in that, in the Bible.

FreeinChrist · Apr 26, 2012

MOD HAT

Folks, the Fundamentalist Christian forum has always been open to Fundamentalists who believe in infant baptism as well as those who hold with believer's baptism. Some Fundamentalist Christians believe it is required for salvation and others do not. A specific position on baptism is not specified in the SOF.

Please keep the discussion civil and be respectful of others. It is not okay to attack the beliefs of other Fundamentalist Christians and future flaming will be addressed.

hwyangel · Apr 26, 2012

Even in the modern context there are a few groups who practice immersion who would not consider baptizing anyone in any body of water other than a running stream ("living waters"). We should also acknowledge that while immersion was a common practice of the Jews,sprinkling was also a common mode of administering blood or water in purification rituals (Num. 19:18,Hebrews 9:19).
. We also find in the New Testament that baptism by immersion communicates more clearly the idea of participating with Christ in his death,burial and resurrection,as well as the idea of salvation as a means of washing away the stain of sin (Rom. 6:3-4,Col. 2:12, Acts 22:16,Titus 3:5,1 Peter 3:21).

ptomwebster · Apr 26, 2012

... Some Fundamentalist Christians believe it is required for salvation and others do not. A specific position on baptism is not specified in the SOF

There are a number of types of fundamentalists, some add baptism to the fundamentals of the faith.

hwyangel · Apr 26, 2012

I think we can agree that getting baptized is a good thing. And if your ever in a desert miles from civilization with only one bottle of water and you have never been baptized I'm sure you would be forgiven if you didn't immerse. lol

Albion · Apr 26, 2012

hwyangel said:
I think we can agree that getting baptized is a good thing. And if your ever in a desert miles from civilization with only one bottle of water and you have never been baptized I'm sure you would be forgiven if you didn't immerse. lol

Well, immersion is not part of the poll; however there also is no choice given for anyone who thinks baptism is not always necessary for salvation (as in your example) but doesn't think that it's a mere sign of obedience, either.

FreeinChrist · Apr 26, 2012

ptomwebster said:
There are a number of types of fundamentalists, some add baptism to the fundamentals of the faith.

I am referring to the SOF for this particular congregational forum.

FreeinChrist · Apr 26, 2012

MOD HAT

Folks, this thread is closed for review.

As a reminder, in regards to who is a Fundamentalist Christian on this site in THIS particular congregational forum, we go by Fundamentalist Christians Statement of Faith.

Whether baptism is necessary for salvation or not is not listed in that statement and NO ONE should be telling anybody to leave. We have had Fundamentalist Chrisitan members who believe either way in regards to baptist since the inception of this forum - that is not changing.

Adding that a partial clean up was started.

FreeinChrist · Apr 27, 2012

The thread will stay closed at OP request

Baptism and Fundamentalists

Is Baptism:

Necessary to salvation because through Baptism is offered the grace of God.

Necessary and effectual to salvation.

We must be baptized or we cannot be saved

The believer is not saved because he is baptized; but, baptized because he is saved.

Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel...

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