Balance?

o_mlly · Apr 8, 2022

James_Lai said:
A clarification: by Happiness I don’t mean an internal feeling of bliss and content, but objective absence of suffering. ... .

Was Christ not "happy" in obedience to the Father's will on the cross? Is it not possible to suffer serenely?

Sadness, a mental suffering, is the absence of contentment, e.g. wanting what we do not have or having what we do not want. Grief, also a mental suffering, passes only when we accept our crosses.
Matthew 11:29-30, Matthew 16:24.

In his theophany, (Job 42:1-6), Job sublates his prior astonished indignation at an unjust God and confesses his enlightened surrender to an unfathomable God. In a free act, albeit conditioned by intense physical suffering and the resulting mental anguish, Job converts his attitude from being God’s victim to beneficiary.

Job now sees himself suffering with God; his prior view imagined his suffering as coming from God. Job’s new attitude allows grace to accompany suffering; his former attitude made suffering and grace mutually exclusive. Job’s renewed affection with God stunningly reverses Job’s disposition toward his suffering from the evidence of his alienation to the instrument of his atonement, “at-one-ment” with God.

"I had heard of You by word of mouth,
But now my eye has seen You.
Therefore I disown what I have said,
And repent in dust and ashes (Job 42:5-6).”

Ivan Hlavanda · Apr 8, 2022

Trusting in Him said:
I suspect that you can probably also understand how I feel about things that have happened to me during my life. Happyness, does not necessarily make us realise just how much that we need to have God in our lives and that without God, all the rest just counts for nothing at all. What does happiness count for without God, if it means that we are going to a lost eternity without Him?

And look how much God's faithful suffered in the Bible. The whole world was against them, yet they prayed to God they are bold doing His will. Blessed are those who find refuge in God.

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

Bradskii said:
We're taking baby steps. Not long out of the trees. And yeah, I'm a glass half full type of guy.

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

Again, speaking of happiness I wasn’t referring to psychological state of mind, which can be experienced even in presence of pain and suffering.

I was referring more to comfort and health. This is what the value #1 is in the world universally as I see it.

The physical aspect of not wanting anything, being in perpetual prosperity and plenty.

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

I’l explain my thought again.

So the ideal of our civilization is: all people ought to receive adequate resources and opportunities to lead a comfortable, healthy life of plenty. Unlimited procreation is good and encouraged (in most of the world that is). Life is sacred. We have to keep developing and increase our comfort and health endlessly. Humanity is superior to and above all life-forms.

(Maybe I don’t formulate it as accurately and as clearly as I should. I’m trying my best)

Historically, this seemed to be a very good ideal that any sane person supported as they saw how well it played out for them. Not so much anymore I think…

The problem is, with very limited resources and innate inequality of people, this model doesn’t really work. Moreover, at a certain point it becomes counter-productive. We begin to destroy and deplete the planet our home. In our zeal to achieve the above we create a great disparity between countries, regions, population strata.

So instead of a Utopia, we enter hell.

Is Endless Comfort and Consumption and Endless Procreation to be replaced by Wise Balance? Maybe too late? Is Pendulum too high up and going to swing back fast and create a catastrophe? At least as a advice to future generations if we can record it for them to not follow our disastrous example.

Your opinion?

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

Unqualified said:
You forget the power of God in our suffering and everyday lives. God plus anything means wholeness.

Good remark!! Yes, the spiritual aspect, especially God’s love and care for us are #1. In the OP I talk about more of a practical ideas for how we live on this planet and among our kind. This is a more external outlook, however, everything is inter-related of course and without inner happiness no amount of physical comfort can replace it. Still, I talk about the imperatives that the absolute majority of people live by, mundane simple tasks and goals such as roof over the head, food, good shoes and clothing, family provided for, doing a job you love, enjoying hobbies and caring for your health etc. Today these efforts materialize more in our efforts to obtain more money as the principal means to all of the above goodies

Unqualified · Apr 8, 2022

I don’t think it is ever going to happen because of sin and pride and greed, not for all of mankind. The poor you will have with you always’. The American dream is done. Prosperity, enough food, opportunity. So for a short while Democracy is in until human nature takes over and there is not enough for all. The green revolution did not feed all the world. Dictators oppress the people. Having God is the closest thing and America was the closest thing. Still a great country though.

So do we need a genius to tell us the next thing. Space is that thing. To go and slowly destroy other planets. But so expensive and no cheap energy. Are we at the end………of ourselves so that we will try His salvation. I don’t think so. But many will in the Great Revival.

But maybe you want charitable giving. If every Christian tithed we could fix a lot of the worlds problems.

So what kind of a system do you want to try where everyone is equal. Have enough, no suffering, have all your needs met, no problems. It’s a nice dream or vision. But only heaven fits those parameters. God promises us all those things in heaven and you are describing heaven. Time for the Gentiles to have faith in what God promises. As you say you see the end approaching. The only escape is Jesus.

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

Unqualified said:
I don’t think it is ever going to happen because of sin and pride and greed, not for all of mankind. The poor you will have with you always’. The American dream is done. Prosperity, enough food, opportunity. So for a short while Democracy is in until human nature takes over and there is not enough for all. The green revolution did not feed all the world. Dictators oppress the people. Having God is the closest thing and America was the closest thing. Still a great country though.

So do we need a genius to tell us the next thing. Space is that thing. To go and slowly destroy other planets. But so expensive and no cheap energy. Are we at the end………of ourselves so that we will try His salvation. I don’t think so. But many will in the Great Revival.

But maybe you want charitable giving. If every Christian tithed we could fix a lot of the worlds problems.

So what kind of a system do you want to try where everyone is equal. Have enough, no suffering, have all your needs met, no problems. It’s a nice dream or vision. But only heaven fits those parameters. God promises us all those things in heaven and you are describing heaven. Time for the Gentiles to have faith in what God promises. As you say you see the end approaching. The only escape is Jesus.

So you think it’s hopeless? The only result that will follow is mass extinction of humanity to restore balance on the planet. It could have been avoided or maybe even now still possible to avoid it?

If all people on the planet agree to chose Balance over Happiness For All

Unqualified · Apr 8, 2022

James_Lai said:
So you think it’s hopeless? The only result that will follow is mass extinction of humanity to restore balance on the planet. It could have been avoided or maybe even now still possible to avoid it?

If all people on the planet agree to chose Balance over Happiness For All

well it’s a long shot. Do you see any hope for that around you. Do you think God is going to let us prosper on the long term without Him. He said He was doing a ‘short work on the earth’.

Where could we go what could we do?

He has the words of eternal life’.

SkyWriting · Apr 8, 2022

James_Lai said:
I know what you’re talking about. It’s a very popular idea today. Positive thinking - can’t change circumstances, change attitude. It doesn’t really reflect reality.

People change reality with their positive thinking...

And their negative thinking...

SkyWriting · Apr 8, 2022

Unqualified said:
well it’s a long shot. Do you see any hope for that around you. Do you think God is going to let us prosper on the long term without Him. He said He was doing a ‘short work on the earth’.

Where could we go what could we do?

He has the words of eternal life’.

That's up to you. It's you that benefits from faith. It's not "we" that benefit from your faith.

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

SkyWriting said:
People change reality with their positive thinking...

And their negative thinking...

True It’s a whole different subject though

James_Lai · Apr 8, 2022

Unqualified said:
well it’s a long shot. Do you see any hope for that around you. Do you think God is going to let us prosper on the long term without Him. He said He was doing a ‘short work on the earth’.

Where could we go what could we do?

He has the words of eternal life’.

I don’t now what God’s plan is and don’t want to try and guess.

I don’t know what we could do. Changes I am talking about must be global or else they would be ineffective.

A switch to Balance could take 2-3 generations as it’s super hard to change the thinking and behaviour of people. I don’t known if we have that long. Switch to Balance could mean a totally new way of life for people. Sounds like a mission impossible to me right now

Unqualified · Apr 8, 2022

SkyWriting said:
That's up to you. It's you that benefits from faith. It's not "we" that benefit from your faith.

just saying though, how would you make utopia when there is not much left to do anything great with- philosophies have been explored, people’s resources, all the build up we have just leads to war. Jesus was the only new thing, now just entropy. Jesus is the Life you seek.

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

James_Lai said:
Hello.
So for many millennia people all over the world have strived for Happiness - absence of any kind of suffering. I can relate, as who likes to suffer?

My questions is philosophical I guess: haven’t we made a fatal mistake as a species to seek Happiness as the highest goal? Even in faith, a paradise on earth, a Utopian society of universal bliss and prosperity. In politics as well, keep everyone happy and content.

Shouldn’t we strive for Balance, as everywhere we look in God’s Creation we see that as the golden rule of operation? Wolves and hares, winter and summer, weeds and wheat… It’s never “all you can eat to your heart’s content”. It’s “you hunger today, but you eat tomorrow, so that someone else can eat today and hunger tomorrow”…

Being out of balance and believing in endless consumption for comfort and health is a delusion that brings us to the brink of extinction.

Should humanity realize they have been wrong all along? Better late than never.

What do you think??

I think if you were to tell people to not strive for better than they have it now and they listened....or worse, forced them into a position where there is nothing to gain (think actual equality) society would collapse anyway.

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

CMDRExorcist said:
I think you make some excellent points! Anything can be bad for us if it becomes the central focus of our lives and consumes us. Even "healthy" food can become unhealthy if its consumed in excessive quantities. In much the same way, the human obsession with building happy lives and reaching the mythological "utopia" state has truly deluded many in our society.

I don't know if utopianism is a good way to describe every philosophical concept of government. Communism/Marxism is utopianism. Fascism is a sort of utopianism I guess....

When you move away from these extremely rigid ideological systems....you'll find the room to describe all others and they don't sound utopian.

There are countless millions who believe that if we just did A, B, and C then we would all live in perpetual happiness. This line of thinking ignores the fact that suffering is a reality and is necessary because without suffering, we would not recognize the opposing side of the spectrum.

Are you referring to children? Adults? Who are these people?

I'd love to see more recognition of the realities of the world and that we can strive to be happy but with an understanding that its impossible to be happy all the time. Pain, suffering, loss, and misery is the nature of a broken world and when we learn to exist within that understanding and lean on God to carry us, we can start to find true happiness even in the darkest times of our lives.

Good for you for not missing an opportunity.

I'm hoping when the end comes....the guy right next to me says, "Hey, I'd really like to talk to you about Jesus" as we hurtle into the void.

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

James_Lai said:
The whole idea of full-time and universal happiness for all regardless of how it’s achieved. It’s unattainable and unsustainable, moreover it’s suicidal

Except for the Christian concept of heaven....right??

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

James_Lai said:
This question isn’t deeply philosophical as it has direct practical application I think.

Happiness is the highest goal or value for us as humans today.

Is it?

be in Balance I think is wiser and better than to strive to Happiness in the sense of lack of or minimization or suffering. Our compassionate nature revolts against the notion of necessary suffering. “How come? It’s so unfair and cruel!” We brought this principle to the absurdity. Now to keep each human happy and content all the time, we are willing to end humanity and doom our offspring to the worst suffering this planet has seen…

Nah...not the worst. Just really close to the worst.

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

expos4ever said:
No, I would not agree. When you write about "Wolves and hares, winter and summer, weeds and wheat… ", I infer that you are saying that we should mimic the "powerful wolf kills weak hare" pattern, or that we should accept "weeds" among the wheat.

Why should we do that - Jesus would never endorse the of raw power to achieve goals.

I thought he was coming back with a sword?

Nor would he, I think, say that we need to accept the "weeds" (I see the "weeds among the wheat' image as a metaphor about tolerating evil).

If you won't tolerate them, but won't use force, how do you intend to rid yourself of them?

Ana the Ist · Apr 9, 2022

James_Lai said:
I wasn’t talking about economics at all. And yes modern Socialism is a very bad system that kills motivation and brings about corruption like no other. I was taking about innate inequality of people like tall and short, weak and strong, intelligent and not so, musically gifted and deaf, attractive and ugly, healthy and sick etc. That is, people naturally have unequal chances in competition for survival, procreation, avoiding suffering.

I think the way to see those differences is the way you see suffering and happiness.

Do we not notice beauty by what it makes appear...average?

Do we not notice strength when compared to those less strong?...

True, not all aspects work this way, but many do.

Balance?

“Behold, I make all things new.”

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