Bad theology in CCM?

brettnolan · Feb 24, 2004

I've seen this a couple of times and now from more than one person, so now I need something to back it up.

It has been noted that there is "a lot" of bad theology and the quote below in "a lot" of Christian music...

CCM songs that downplay his sovereignty and misrepresent his atonement

Can I get some examples please?
thanks

nadroj1985 · Feb 24, 2004

Yeah I think it'd be interesting to here these examples too........

ps139 · Feb 24, 2004

Yeah actually this would be a REAL interesting thread!

(Sorry I am the 3rd post and as of yet we still have nothing specific to talk about )

Another thought - some people talk about how CCM is all the same, not very deep - could it be that mainstream CCM artists do not want to tread into the deep theological waters, where many disagreements abound?

blackwasp · Feb 24, 2004

Very few bands make it through CCM that have solid theology. One exception I can think of is Caedmon's Call.

If you listen to the majority of christian songs (the one's that actually attempt to be serious) their message is either vague or touches on the same issues over and over again. This is especially the case in christian rap.

If christian bands are set on ministry and edifying the listener, why don't they challenge the individual to tackle meat rather than providing milk over and over again? Why don't they discuss the origin of creation? Why don't they make a stand against mainstream heretical teachings? The truthful reason is, many of the "entertainers" probably aren't capable of teaching. Even if they were, why would the christian labels (that are owned by secular labels) want to put out material that a large portion of their fan base would not agree with?

blackwasp · Feb 24, 2004

Also, Brett, think about it this way. I'm not sure what denomination you belong to, but hopefully this will provide a new thought (not trying to get into a theological argument in this thread...I'll save that for others). If you are protestant, would you want your child being taught by a catholic leader? What if you are catholic? Would you want your child to have protestant instruction? What if you are reformed -- charismatic? Charismatic -- reformed? Protestant/Catholic -- Jehovah's Witness or Morman?

How much do you know about these people who claim to be christian musicians? How do you know exactly what they believe and are teaching? I think in this sense, christian music can be more dangerous than secular.

ps139 · Feb 24, 2004

blackwasp said:
Also, Brett, think about it this way. I'm not sure what denomination you belong to, but hopefully this will provide a new thought (not trying to get into a theological argument in this thread...I'll save that for others). If you are protestant, would you want your child being taught by a catholic leader? What if you are catholic? Would you want your child to have protestant instruction? What if you are reformed -- charismatic? Charismatic -- reformed? Protestant/Catholic -- Jehovah's Witness or Morman?

How much do you know about these people who claim to be christian musicians? How do you know exactly what they believe and are teaching? I think in this sense, christian music can be more dangerous than secular.

Good point. I was thinking of bringing it up, but I figured I'd rather wait until it surfaces in our "exegesis" of CCM lyrics.
That could be another reason for the limited scope of lyrics - keeping it simple and sticking to the "essentials."

But yeah, I wouldn't want to listen to a song that went "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was A God, etc." (JW translation of John 1:1.) Lyrics singing about the Sacraments and Real Presence wouldn't be too popular in a Protestant market. Bands singing about Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide wouldn't be too popular among Catholics.

Anyway, I'm ready for some real lyrical analysis!!

brettnolan · Feb 24, 2004

Okay, I think we may have a diiferent issue than I thought we had. One that probably goes in yet a different thread.

I would simply ask again, first of all, that we get some examples, so we can see where the bad theology lies.

To the other point, it now sounds like your problem with Christian music is a vague message...or a message that doesn't necessarily connect (praise and worship music). Further, there is an issue with a band's "credentials." I don't want my music to preach to or teach me. To me music is an expression of emotion. "Secular" songs that touch me the most are ones that I can relate to emotionally and the same goes for Christian songs. So I don't care whether an artist is Morman or Jewish or even atheist if the art speaks to me the way that I want it to. Evanescence would be an example. I have no idea whether they ever were a Christian band or not and I don't really care, some of the music, to me, is spiritual.

More directly to your point, I would PREFER my child be taught by someone with the same theology as myself. However, as you have noted, most Christian songs don't address theological issues beyond the most basic, common ground. And if that were the case with a teacher, it wouldn't matter.

Anyway, if we can get some examples of "bad" theology, perhaps we'll be able to agree to disagree, at least. It will help to know from which angle the other guy is looking at the topic.

brettnolan · Feb 24, 2004

ps139 said:
Another thought - some people talk about how CCM is all the same, not very deep - could it be that mainstream CCM artists do not want to tread into the deep theological waters, where many disagreements abound?

I don't see the problem with this. If you want to bring people together in Christ as opposed to pushing your view, of course you're going to tread common ground.

ps139 · Feb 24, 2004

brettnolan said:
To the other point, it now sounds like your problem with Christian music is a vague message...or a message that doesn't necessarily connect (praise and worship music). Further, there is an issue with a band's "credentials." I don't want my music to preach to or teach me. To me music is an expression of emotion. "Secular" songs that touch me the most are ones that I can relate to emotionally and the same goes for Christian songs. So I don't care whether an artist is Morman or Jewish or even atheist if the art speaks to me the way that I want it to. Evanescence would be an example. I have no idea whether they ever were a Christian band or not and I don't really care, some of the music, to me, is spiritual.

Good point. I do not go to musicians for theological insight. I go for the expression of emotion as well.
Maybe that is another reason why CCM are more into the emotion of faith rather than the intellect of faith? Anyway, I want to get down to business.

Axver · Feb 25, 2004

Personally, I think the problem is that the bands don't get much beyond the theme of direct praise. Deep and meaningful - and often controversial - themes are not tackled in CCM, even though lots of secular artists will sing about what they're passionate about. Here's an example: U2 has made enemies due to their strong words against violence in Northern Ireland. Would a CCM band be prepared to risk a far less violent backlash for singing about something they're as passionate about, such as amillennialism or Catholic Tradition or sola scriptura? Seems not.

nadroj1985 · Feb 25, 2004

Axver said:
Personally, I think the problem is that the bands don't get much beyond the theme of direct praise. Deep and meaningful - and often controversial - themes are not tackled in CCM, even though lots of secular artists will sing about what they're passionate about. Here's an example: U2 has made enemies due to their strong words against violence in Northern Ireland. Would a CCM band be prepared to risk a far less violent backlash for singing about something they're as passionate about, such as amillennialism or Catholic Tradition or sola scriptura? Seems not.

Yep. This is what I was going to say, pretty much. Most of my favorite bands are so because they took chances, and didn't worry about whether they might offend someone by it. I'd love to see CCM do the same.

blackwasp · Feb 25, 2004

Very good point Axver.

I'll try finding CCM lyrics to post, but I don't know how successful I will be considering I don't listen to christian music normally.

What bothers me the most is that the CCM exists without a purpose. Surely it's point isn't to lead in worship (that is what praise bands are for). The answer I normally get from christians is that it is for entertainment. One of the christian stations in my hometown has "The positive alternative" as its slogan. I think that this is both arrogant and foolish. I don't have a problem with christian bands existing, I just think that they should have to compete in the secular market with the other artists. What is the point of the separation?

blackwasp · Feb 25, 2004

Ok, the Elms are my favorite christian group, and would survive on the secular market as well as any christian band if there lyrics were more relatable. I've seen them in concert three times, and each time they were better. However, their theology seems kinda squirrely. Check out the lyrics to the chorus of "Hey Hey" which received rotation on MTV for a couple of weeks two or so years ago.

If you need it, you got it! I found it, I bought it!
You cant ever take it, or fake it Hey, hey, hey!

I'm not really sure what this is referring to. Considering that in the first verse, he is asking what the world has to offer, I'm assuming that this is his response to what he has. With a little analysis (if I'm right about the message of the chorus), he is saying that anyone who needs salvation has it, which is clearly untrue. Also, he follows with "I found it, I bought it". This contradicts the biblical message that God draws us and that salvation was paid in full by the blood of Christ.

I don't know, maybe I am way off in my analysis of what they are getting at, but if they are going to be vague, then what is the point of promoting a christian band with a good message? Can anyone figure out that message?

brettnolan · Feb 25, 2004

CCM's purpose IS to provide an alternative to mainstream entertainment. I really am astonished that you find that "foolish and arrogant." What would be the point (for a Christian) of tuning into the local pop station and hearing Zoegirl, Plus One, Avalon, Christina Aquilera, Avril Lavigne and Lil' Kim all mixed in together? How does that provide an alternative for someone who doesn't want to hear all the filth in most mainstream music today? That would be like PAX TV running Elimidate, Howard Stern, South Park & the Man Show. For non-Christians on the other hand, it is a good way to plant a seed. For example, in the early 90's when Amy Grant and Michael W Smith had a few mainstream hits, I'm sure there were people who bought their CD's that normally wouldn't, and were exposed to more overt Christian themes on the rest of the album.

I don't know who your favorite bands are, but if you're as dead set on originality as some of the other posters, it's likely that the bands you like don't compete all that well amongst other bands in the mainstream. They may have a decent sized fan base, but they aren't making the kind of jack the record companies would like.

Anyway, we've now come to a place where you've all but admitted that you don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't have trouble coming up with bad theology in CCM, if it's filled with it, even if you don't listen to it normally. I'm not saying that is the case, you are one of the few who have been able to speak from the experience of actually having been to some CCM concerts.

I like ps139 am ready to get down to business. By the way, the lyrics you find should have some theological message. We've already discussed Relient K, and there will obviously be some songs by other artists that have NO message at all. Loophole closed.

brettnolan · Feb 25, 2004

Full lyrics...courtesy christianlyrics.com

Yeah, hey, hey guys! Hey , hey guys!
Whats the prize if we won it?
Yeah, hey, hey girls! Hey, hey girls!
Whats the world got to offer?

If you need it, you got it! I found it, I bought it!
You cant ever take it, or fake it Hey, hey, hey!

Yeah, hey, hey you! Hey, hey you!
Is it true, all the rumours?
Yeah, hey, hey I! Hey, hey I
Shouldve tried - tried this sooner.

If you want it, you got it, and everybodys gonna bow down sometime.

brettnolan · Feb 25, 2004

I have a little problem with the "I bought it" phrase.

I would disagree with you on the point that "anyone who needs salvation has it," being untrue. Salvation is free to anyone who accepts JC as Lord and Savior.

Anyone else?

As for being vague (I seem to remember hearing this on mainstream radio), vagueness? gets you played in mainstream, overt Christian messages do not. You want to reach more people, you get into the market with the vague music, put one or two direct songs on your CD and you've introduced someone to your message that otherwise might not have heard it.

blackwasp · Feb 25, 2004

brettnolan said:
I have a little problem with the "I bought it" phrase.

I would disagree with you on the point that "anyone who needs salvation has it," being untrue. Salvation is free to anyone who accepts JC as Lord and Savior.

Anyone else?

As for being vague (I seem to remember hearing this on mainstream radio), vagueness? gets you played in mainstream, overt Christian messages do not. You want to reach more people, you get into the market with the vague music, put one or two direct songs on your CD and you've introduced someone to your message that otherwise might not have heard it.

Ah, but how can one come to repentance without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? If one must choose salvation, have you not obtained salvation by works? You have now proved that a conservative christian will be turned off by this message. Why should I expose myself to a message like this that I think is untrue? In my opinion, that is slapping God in the face.

blackwasp · Feb 25, 2004

brettnolan said:
CCM's purpose IS to provide an alternative to mainstream entertainment. I really am astonished that you find that "foolish and arrogant." What would be the point (for a Christian) of tuning into the local pop station and hearing Zoegirl, Plus One, Avalon, Christina Aquilera, Avril Lavigne and Lil' Kim all mixed in together? How does that provide an alternative for someone who doesn't want to hear all the filth in most mainstream music today? That would be like PAX TV running Elimidate, Howard Stern, South Park & the Man Show. For non-Christians on the other hand, it is a good way to plant a seed. For example, in the early 90's when Amy Grant and Michael W Smith had a few mainstream hits, I'm sure there were people who bought their CD's that normally wouldn't, and were exposed to more overt Christian themes on the rest of the album.

I don't know who your favorite bands are, but if you're as dead set on originality as some of the other posters, it's likely that the bands you like don't compete all that well amongst other bands in the mainstream. They may have a decent sized fan base, but they aren't making the kind of jack the record companies would like.

Anyway, we've now come to a place where you've all but admitted that you don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't have trouble coming up with bad theology in CCM, if it's filled with it, even if you don't listen to it normally. I'm not saying that is the case, you are one of the few who have been able to speak from the experience of actually having been to some CCM concerts.

I like ps139 am ready to get down to business. By the way, the lyrics you find should have some theological message. We've already discussed Relient K, and there will obviously be some songs by other artists that have NO message at all. Loophole closed.

Well our churches better work extra hard with our christian thespians! We need to produce more movies like Omega Code for the world to scoff at so that christians don't have to go to the movies and see the filth that the world offers. If music that the world creates stumbles you so much, would you be willing to lay all "entertainment" music on the altar and sacrifice it for the sake of your personal relationship with Christ?

A song that has no message is empty space. What a waste.

I have been to christian concerts, but I most certainly am not familiar with the songs and own none of their cds. Please provide me with a christian song by a mainstream "entertainment" band that has amazing edifying lyrics that are right-on. Elsewise, I will have to continue to find lyrics to the few songs that I do know.

By the way, most of the bands I like sold millions of records. Sabbath, Zeppelin, Guns n Roses, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins...no small names there. Not that I don't like smaller bands, but on the norm, I like bands that accomplished success by originality.

And you are right about the television issue. Why don't we create more stations similar to TBN? I can't get enough!

nadroj1985 · Feb 25, 2004

blackwasp said:
Ah, but how can one come to repentance without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? If one must choose salvation, have you not obtained salvation by works? You have now proved that a conservative christian will be turned off by this message. Why should I expose myself to a message like this that I think is untrue? In my opinion, that is slapping God in the face.

"Emptiness is loneliness and loneliness is cleanliness and cleanliness is Godliness and God is empty, just like me."

That's the Smashing Pumpkins, one of your favorite bands. It seems that they are slapping God in the face as well, yet you love them.

Oh, and watch out guys, don't make this into a theology thread....

ps139 · Feb 25, 2004

brettnolan said:
Full lyrics...courtesy christianlyrics.com

Yeah, hey, hey guys! Hey , hey guys!
Whats the prize if we won it?
Yeah, hey, hey girls! Hey, hey girls!
Whats the world got to offer?

If you need it, you got it! I found it, I bought it!
You cant ever take it, or fake it Hey, hey, hey!

Yeah, hey, hey you! Hey, hey you!
Is it true, all the rumours?
Yeah, hey, hey I! Hey, hey I
Shouldve tried - tried this sooner.

If you want it, you got it, and everybodys gonna bow down sometime.

Actually I have a different interpretation of this song.
I think the first part is just about what the world has to offer. And how we live in a consumer society.

Then, in the next part, the rumors = Gospel.
Is it true? Yes. And yes, we all should have "tried it" sooner.

And if you want Jesus, you got Him - he's right there for you - and grace is free....but you must "bow down" = worship, lose your pride, accept Jesus.

Hows that sound?

Bad theology in CCM?

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