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back to basics...

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foundinHim

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I never found Christs diety in question, only the nature of His earthly form. Nothing we need to understand for salvation. I have been in these discussions before and someone always accuses the other of herisy or blasphemy, no win situation.

I'm just glad we are talking finally. Lets haves some dialoge and raise knowledge instead of tempers.
Sorry to disagree with you again...but I find Christ's Deity being denied and I believe it is very dishonoring and irreverent to my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.

I'm glad that you're glad, but I don't know what I can dialogue with you about...you and I have disagreed enough on what I believe is very important to understanding God's "word of truth", such as "rightly dividing". (2Tim.2:15)

And at the present time, I am grieving the departure of my dearly beloved "fellow-labourers" in Christ, namely eph3Nine, biblebeliever123, and JMWHALEN..."for we are members one of another. Right now, it is like I have had an arm or a leg cut off, and I am suffering.

Also, I don't care if any one here thinks I'm a "heretick" or accuses me of blasphemy. I know what I believe and in Whom I believe. I seek God's approval, not man's.

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: "

"Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Who is denying the Deity of Christ?


"Christ" is the Living Spirit", who is come in human flesh of the second Creation.

God was manifest in the flesh -New Man flesh.
Jesus Christ is God/Man -but He is not God/Adam, He is YHWH/Israel. -So is it that you want to make Christ come in Adam flesh? -that isn't possible, as Adam is a living soul, a dead in spirit former son of God , and cannot pass anything but spiritual death to his seed.
 
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timlamb

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Sorry to disagree with you again...but I find Christ's Deity being denied and I believe it is very dishonoring and irreverent to my Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.

I'm glad that you're glad, but I don't know what I can dialogue with you about...you and I have disagreed enough on what I believe is very important to understanding God's "word of truth", such as "rightly dividing". (2Tim.2:15)

And at the present time, I am grieving the departure of my dearly beloved "fellow-labourers" in Christ, namely eph3Nine, biblebeliever123, and JMWHALEN..."for we are members one of another. Right now, it is like I have had an arm or a leg cut off, and I am suffering.

Also, I don't care if any one here thinks I'm a "heretick" or accuses me of blasphemy. I know what I believe and in Whom I believe. I seek God's approval, not man's.

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless,
and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord
: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: "

"Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."
I think everyone here holds Paul in high asteem and would agree with your quotes above.
I don't pretend to understand or especially agree with everything said here, but I do find love, respect, and adoration, for our savior. You worry about others opinions of the humanness of Jesus the man, remember what Paul said, "Your attitudes should be the same as that of Christ Jesus.

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasp, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even deathe on a cross!" Philippians 2:5-8

Could any of us paint Christ in a more humble picture than that? The point is we are servants of Christ Jesus, not Paul or Peter or John. I am trying to reach out to you as a servant of Christ. We all need to loose the arrogance of our personal wisdom and take all others off the pedistal but Jesus.

With our page after page of cut and paste bible verse and religious commentary, would anyone who wasn't, want to be a Christian after reading what has been said?

I ask Mr Whalen to set aside his anger and it only made things worse. We have all said things we shouldn't have while pointing the self righteous finger at the other.

Maybe we are to different in our beliefs to hold a bible study together, but we shouldn't carry anger in ourselves over it. If we do then we have the wrong priorities and we are serving someone other than Christ Jesus.

I have found Christian fellowship in all denominations, and prayed with Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's witnesses; tell me why I couldn't find common ground with you, I say we can.

Peace,
Tim
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Found in Him,
I hope you have enjoyed the Scriptures I listed showing Jesus' human being body He [YHWH in the second Person, called the Word of God] is wearing is the second creation human being, the YHWH from heaven in New Man flesh, come to be our Kinsman/Redeemer.

If you have any doubts that the Scriptures mean what I have shown, above, then see that Paul fully understands that there are only two human being natures created by the Father: the first human being, Adam, made a living soul in human flesh; and the second human being, the LORD from heaven, the Living Spirit come to dwell in the second creation human flesh.

God made two human beings, brothers: one brother was made a living soul, in human flesh: the other brother is "The eternal, everlasting, self existing Living Spirit come "in human flesh": both human being bodies are created: both bodies are the clothes the full human being nature is "wearing" -which we call "inhabiting our dwelling".


1Cr 15:47
The protos [first] anthropos***[human being] [is] of the earth, earthy: the deuteros [second] anthropos***[human being] [is] the Lord from heaven.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1163302288-9935.html#47

protos 1) first in time or place
a) in any succession of things or persons
2) first in rank
a) influence, honour
b) chief

c) principal
3) first, at the first
anthropos -human being
is of the earth, earthy

deuteros 1) the second, the other of two

-human being
is the LORD from heaven.

anthropos {anth'-ro-pos}1) a human being, whether male or female
a) generically, to include all human individuals
b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order…
bump, for discussion on the basics of redemption.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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When YHWH created the first human being, He formed the 'house', first, from the elements of the creation, which was prepared for the dominion of the human being -formed from his kingdom, as "son of God" [Luke 3:38].

That 'house' -the formed body- was breathed into by the Breath of YHWH, and Adam 'became' a 'living soul' a "spirit being" indwelling a house of clay -made in the image of God.

And, YHWH formed within the Adam human being a sanctuary for His own glory to indwell, which was the inner "sanctuary" of the human being, for God is "Spirit" and does not dwell in houses made with hands.
His "sons" have His glory indwelling and outshining, and are crowned with glory -and they shine as the stars of heaven, with their own measures of His glory.

Adam was "son of God", a "humankind" [for we do see in Scripture that YHWH has many kinds, called sons of God] and his dominion was the earth and the heaven [spirit realm] connected to it, which is the realm of the spirit which Adam, the son of God would move in, over his own dominion as priest unto YHWH -not the highest heaven, but the lowest.

But Adam is dead in spirit since the fall and is cut off from that realm forever.
The first 'death' is separation, a cutting off from the spirit realm, and separation from the Father's glory indwelling.

Adam, son of God, is irreversibly dead in spirit and cannot enter the realm of spirit and cannot serve as "priest" and king of his dominion for he cannot keep himself alive nor enter into the presence on high in his uncleanness to make intercession for his seed.

These things are learned by Scripture study. Malachi 2:15 and Genesis 5:2, says YHWH made Adam one spirit, male and female, because He sought 'sons of God' by the multiplication of the 'living seed'.
Genesis 1:26,28; Malachi 2:15; Genesis 5:2, shows the creation of Adam as one [human] being, made male and female, and commanded to multiply the seed within the being -as all male/ female kinds were to do, of earth, to fill the earth [which implies a ceasing to multiply when the fullness is 'come to'].

Adam died, and all we, his seed, died in his loins; and Eve, who was named the "mother of all living" bore no living, after all.

But the plan was already made, before we were even created in Adam, for the Redeemer to come as Kinsman who would restore the kingdom: for God, in whose image -as the Son who was to come- Adam was made [Romans 5:14], was planned to come and was already "Hid in God" [not made flesh but existing] as He who would come -the "Word of God"- who would be made [come in the new creation human] flesh in the appointed season -in the fullness of time.
Because He was already planned to come -and in fact existed without beginning of days- as God the Word; therefore the serpent was told by YHWH at the fall that the "Seed of the Woman", would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel.

The weapon of God's warfare to redeem was already in existence, for the "barren Woman", the "Zion of Spirit" above, had a "Seed", already, and He was to come in human being flesh as the second Son of the Father; as YHWH, Himself, God the Word, the Living Spirit, to indwell that second, human being Son of God, prepared body.

Bringing heaven down to earth for the habitation of the Father in the sons of God "the humankind" is His mission, and in the restoration of the heavens and the earth, the Father will again indwell the human perfected sons, the godly seed, and will glorify the kingdom He did depart, which Adam was separated from, when the glory departed his being and kingdom.

We suffered a great loss in our spiritual death and were hopeless as to making a gift to redeem ourselves, for God is holy and we were defiled; and a defiled being cannot approach a holy God cannot come into His presence in His Holy of Holies -that is the lesson learned in the oracles, which were patterns to learn the truths of heaven from.

So God has One Living son -a New Son of the humankind; and we are born in the dead former son, as his seed, unable to keep ourselves alive or to make an atonement to keep a brother alive or to approach the Living God with any sacrifice acceptable; but he is come to make atonement for our uncleanness -which He did do- and to ransom our lost kingdom and restore it back to us, as His adopted sons ruling the kingdom which He isthe "Firstborn" of now.


Haggai chapter 2 teaches us of the inability to bring any gift to a holy God in an unclean vessel -and Adam is the vessel and Adam is defiled since the fall.
But the Second Son, the Elect, Chosen, Holy, Anointed Son of the Father -a second human kind- who is the Living Spirit in that Anointed Holy Flesh of the second human creation, is come as our Kinsman with the power and the will to do the duty of Kinsman to His only brother -and He has His own kingdom, the highest heaven, as God the Word, yet He came and ransomed the kingdom of Adam, the dead, back, for the Father's glory to fill again -in the regeneration of it in Him, by Him; and He does that duty by covering our transgressions, in Adam, being our personal Scapegoat, ransoming the kingdom lost "marrying" the barren widow -who had no living seed, in Adam- and adopting all the seed of Adam into the "Zion, above", so they may be "sons of God which YHWH sought when He made Adam "one spirit", "male and female" fopr the godly seed to multiply and He to indwell -but the sons are his by adoption into His Spirit, and He will dissolve the Adam bodies' elements and regenerate them in His own likeness -in due season.

We are always going to be ourselves, individual persons born of the multiplied seed of Adam, but we will only be sons of God in Christ, the Living Spirit, by Adoption.
And when we are regenerated in our elements, then our bodies will also be called, no longer Adam, but "Israel", we will be sons of God in bodies of "perfection" as the seed of the Living Spirit, fleshed out.


Deu 25:5¶If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.Deu 25:6
And it shall be, [that] the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother [which is] dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.Deu 25:7
And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.
Deu 25:8
Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and [if] he stand [to it], and say, I like not to take her;Deu 25:9
Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.

There was no other who could perforn the duty of next of Kin to the "barren".
We are all in a sense, "the barren" widow, -Zion above -in waiting- and we are all the 'dead seed'.

The Church is that "Woman" of Spirit who is to marry the Second Son and "Mother" the living"

John said:
Mar 1:7 ... There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

ct 13:25
And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not [he]. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of [his] feet I am not worthy to loose.

Jhn 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
 
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timlamb

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This is an interesting post i don't think I understand what "Dispensationalism" is. Can anyone give me a brief explanation so I can understand this area of the forum.
In my opinion dispensationalism is the study of how God and man related during different points in history. It can be quite useful in understanding scripture but can be a stumbling block for those who make to much of it.

Some might not agree with this analogy, but I'm just pulling something out of the air. Isaiah's prophecy was not redily understood in his day or in the context of the time period. But as the prophecy of jesus unfolds we can see the meanings in the context of the time period they were for and about. That is using dispensations, and in this case, hind sight.

Although the dispensation of Grace is spoken of by Paul, the bible doesn't specificaly mention this method of study. We are to recieve understanding through the Holy Spirit, where dispensations are mans method. Not a bad thing if kept in perspective.

Others will most likely disagree on how they view dispensations, but I hope this helps.

Tim
 
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yeshuasavedme

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This is an interesting post i don't think I understand what "Dispensationalism" is. Can anyone give me a brief explanation so I can understand this area of the forum.
I think someone did a post showing it is "stewardship".
Who has stewardship of the "Good News", which is also called the "glad tidings" to "all people", today? -"The Church".
What is the Church? It is the nation that is not a people -not an ethnic division of families of earth,but is composed of men from every nation and tribe and tongue.

When was it established on earth ? -at Pentecost.
What was the mark of it's establisnment as His building for His glory to rest upon, as a holy place -as His Sanctuary?
-"The glory of God appearing" as pillars of fire, and alighting "to rest" on those who were already born of the Spirit [whom Jesus breathed His Spirit of Life into after His resurrection], who at that time were endued with the power -as sons of God in Spirit- to do His works until He comes.
 
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mick24458

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Thanks, I think I get it. The main distinction for us as Chrisitians being the difference between say, the dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of Grace in Christ.
Tim, mention that some take it too far. I've done some reading just now and I assume you mean those who are referred to as hyperdispensationalists - they seem to say that only Paul's teaching is relevant to the church today.
Mick
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Thanks, I think I get it. The main distinction for us as Chrisitians being the difference between say, the dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of Grace in Christ.
Tim, mention that some take it too far. I've done some reading just now and I assume you mean those who are referred to as hyperdispensationalists - they seem to say that only Paul's teaching is relevant to the church today.
Mick
The Grace of Christ was given to the namesake nation by faith, however, and they were the stewards of the “vineyard” of God’s grace which was to come to all men; to the Jew first, as laborers in the vineyard, and also to the Gentiles.

They never came to the goal of “the Perfect Man” by the keeping of the Law of Moses, but by that stewardship committed to them, they showed the One Way, by acting out the Living Oracles committed to them, which was “to come” in New Man human flesh in the fullness of time.

Christ, the Living Spirit come in flesh as our Mercy Seat for our perfection in New Man Spirit and New Man body, is the goal, or the end, of the Law.
Now He has come the Way is open for all in Adam to return to the Father as cleansed in our human being souls, who will be adopted into the Son of God’s Living Spirit and dressed in the likeness of His “New [human being] Man” body which is the “perfect Man.

for all who come through that “Strait Gate”, which to we Gentiles is specifically defined as Christ crucified on the Cross for our Atonement; but specifically defined to the Jew, the keeper of the Oracles, as the Mercy Seat of YHWH who was patterned in the Holy of Holies shown to Moses to copy, , and to them His blood of sprinkling was patterned in the yearly atonement, given to Moses to copy and perform until the final once for all Sin offering was offered and received, which ended that yearly offering forever, in that God no longer looks upon our transgression in Adam, for it is covered in the “Acceptable offering” -and whosoever will may come and be made sons of God in Christ’s Living Spirit and be glorified with the glory of the Father indwelling, as Adam was created for the purpose of being and died to -and we died “in Adam” to Son-ship -of the Father- and died to priesthood before YHWH in His heavenly realm, as “Adam“, forever.

Adoption was offered first to the namesake people who had adoption as sons [taken from among the Gentiles] by faith -but whosoever of them sinned was cut off as son of God and their names were blotted out of the Book of Life. Now, all can come be made sons of God by adoption into the Living Spirit.

God split the veil which copied the pattern of the heavenly truth of our human “being” cut off from the glory in the heavenly temple “top to bottom” on the Day Jesus died, making a public display “showing Him openly” as our true Mercy Seat Hidden in the Holy of Holies -and He was lifted up as the “Serpent on a pole” on whom we who are stung by the sting of death [sin] can gaze upon and be healed.

All things of His Person and work were taught in the "Tutor" [the Oracles committed to the Jews], which, as "Schoolmaster", was to bring all men -the Jew first, and then the Gentiles- to the “One Goal” or “Finish”, of the Law, which is the "Perfect Man", to which we will come to bodily if we are born again in His Living Spirit, now, while the Day is called the "Day of Salvation" to "all" men.
 
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timlamb

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Thanks, I think I get it. The main distinction for us as Chrisitians being the difference between say, the dispensation of the Law and the dispensation of Grace in Christ.
Tim, mention that some take it too far. I've done some reading just now and I assume you mean those who are referred to as hyperdispensationalists - they seem to say that only Paul's teaching is relevant to the church today.
Mick
I did not intend to direct my statement at Pauline dispinsationalists, there are many who will not interpret the bible outside of the dispy thinking. But in my opinion, they are an example of extreemism in dispy thinking.
 
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mick24458

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So what you are basically saying, yeshuasavedme, is OT believers are keepers or strewards of the promise and NT believers are recipients of the fulfilment (or at least downpayment by the way I see it) of the promise.
I like your thinking - the concepts are not new to me but your terminology is interstingly new.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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So what you are basically saying, yeshuasavedme, is OT believers are keepers or strewards of the promise and NT believers are recipients of the fulfilment (or at least downpayment by the way I see it) of the promise.
I like your thinking - the concepts are not new to me but your terminology is interstingly new.
Yes, as to being given the "living oracles"to act out which showed the Way, but were not themselves the Way.
The Way is through the New Man's death, whose body was the true "Mercy Seat" typed in the heavenly temple which Moses received the heavenly pattern of, to copy.

Even Paul said Jesus' body [on the cross] was "set forth" by God as the Mercy Seat.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth [to be] [a] propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


"Propitiation" is "Mercy Seat" and also the sacrifice upon it, which is the blood shed on His body for our [all Adam's] "remission" of sin.
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
b) an expiatory sacrifice
c) a expiatory victim
~~
"Set forth" in that passage is 1) to place before, to set forth
a) to set forth to be looked at, expose to view
b) to expose to public view
1) of the bodies of the dead
2) to let lie in state...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/4/1163698933-4592.html

He was "openly made a public display, a specticle, as a dead victim a sacrifice" as our Mercy Seat.

And as our "Scapegoat" He departed His sinless body in which He became "sin" for us, on the cross, and took all our sins and iniquities with Him, bearing them, to Sheol -and He left them there when He rose from the dead "perfected".

Identifying with Him as our Scapegoat is needed for our own personal sins to be put away, with Him in His death, forever, for on the cross, His body covered the transgression of our entire being, which is called "Adam", and none of us will die the second death for the transgression which caused the first death [cutting off as sons of God and the separation forever from the Father's glory indwelling], but if we do not personally "lay hands on" so to speak, the Scapegoat, confessing our sins and believing He took them to Sheol with Him, dying in our place, as our substitute, then we cannot be born again.

To believe He is the Savior of the world is one thing, but to identify with Him in His death for our sins is needed, to be born again -if we have indeed come to the age of accountability, for all born of Adam who have done no personal good or evil with understanding [babies and the mental adult babies] are covered by that blood on the Mercy Seat, once, for all, in Adam.

The tragedy would be to believe He is Savior and never to "lay hands on the Scapegoat" by confessing and identifying with Him in His death.
Now that the once for all sin Offering is made and accepted, the Way is open to all who will come through that "Strait Gate", for anyone who "looks" upon the serpent on the pole, to identify with Him, is healed from the sting of death, which is sin.

Jesus said, If I be lifted up I will draw all men to Me, and He was speaking of being lifted up as the serpent on the pole, for all to be healed who were stung; and Paul said the sting of death is sin.

Jesus became sin for us, and by that, became mortal [on the cross, when our sins and iniquities were laid on Him and the Father turned from Him] -and His New Man human being body was not mortal until He tasted our death ont he cross; for He was Life, the Living Spirit, come in that New Man [second human being created, as Paul spoke of] flesh and He had Life in Himself- but He tasted our death, so that we might have His Life -if we come to Him and be made new creatures in His Living Spirit, which is freely offered to "whosoever will" in this Day of Salvation -For God rent the vale to the Holy of Holies for all to come in through His "rent flesh" , to the Holy Place on high, in regeneration of Spirit by Believing on Him as our "Accepted Sacrifice" which made an end forever of the sin debt in Adam which kept us separated from the Father's Spirit of glory.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The Law was a Tutor, and not the end, itself,
and "the Law and the prophets were until John, since then the Kingdom of heaven [the dominion lost over this earth, in the spirit realm] suffers violence and the violent take it by force". Redemption is here, and in Him we can be "sons of God" as Adam was, in the beginning [Luke 3:38].

Through Jesus, the "One Way", we regain son-ship and can enter into the presence of the Father's glory and He will dwell in us.
At this time, we are sons of God in the Spirit of Christ, but in the regeneration of our bodies we will be restored to all we died to in Adam - but with more glory than in Adam, for Adam is earthy, of the earth, made a living soul; the New Man is Living Spirit, and we will share His glory in the resurrection.
 
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